Outgrowing Paganism?
Deo’s Shadow, once the most popular Pagan podcast on the Internet, has decided to officially call it quits after several months of hiatus. In their farewell message, co-hosts Deò and Mandy describe how the podcast spurred them toward personal growth, specifically “growing out of” modern Paganism and into atheism.
Making deòs Shadow was usually a joy, and as the show grew more popular, we had many opportunities for new experiences which helped us to grow as people. One of the interesting side-effects of such growth is that one can end up growing out of that which induces the growth. We’ve moved on from Paganism and are now practicing atheists. We’re both in our 30s now, deò is half finished his PhD program (he began the show as an undergrad), Mandy is busy at a successful career, and we’ve got our eyes on the mundane things in life like securing a future and starting a family within the next few years.
In a follow-up post Deò ellaborates on his journey from Christianity, to Paganism, and into atheism (and why he isn’t jumping from Paganism into a different spiritual/religious practice). Spurring the follow-up was a comment by a listener of the podcast who experienced a similar (though not identical) trajectory.
I understand outgrowing things. I was a self proclaimed Pagan for 13 or so years. Recently after much study, therapy and self reflection I knew I had to take the plunge and drop the label. I can no longer label myself as a pagan. Doing this felt amazingly liberating. Who would have thought? Now this wasn’t necessarily a rejection of Paganism. I still find great value in many things deemed Pagan. This was just a moving forward from the need to put myself in a “box” that was stifling my growth. Now I know that this could be very offensive to some and I understand that.
Reading those pages made me think of the excellent posts by Cat Chapin-Bishop on her Quaker Pagan Reflections blog about balancing a Quaker and Pagan identity, about Al Billings’ (from In Pursuit of Mysteries) move from a Pagan/occult identity to Buddhism (albeit one still informed by his Pagan past), and even, briefly, about the conversion of author Carl McColman from Paganism to Catholicism. All of these narratives – Deò and Mandy’s, Cat’s, Andrea’s, Al’s, Carl’s – speak of growth, a growth that in most cases leads them away from a Pagan identity (or at least a displacement of Paganism as their core religious affiliation). Someone “outgrowing” Paganism (or hyphenating their Paganism) seems almost like a cliche nowadays, and it makes me wonder if we are alienating some of our more skeptical and philosophically-minded adherents in ways we don’t realize?
I say none of this because I resent Deò and Mandy’s (or anyone else’s) decisions, or that we should try to win them back. I wish them both the best, and thank them for their years of service to our communities. However, that the hosts of a popular Pagan program have turned atheist should evoke some soul-searching about growth and maturity in our communities. Chas Clifton recently pointed out that pre-Christian (pagan) philosophy used to embrace everyone from the “hard” polytheists to the skeptical materialists. Who (and what) are we not embracing? Where are we not growing that these smart and talented folks must find their spiritual (or philosophical) satisfaction elsewhere? What do you think?
34 responses so far
I wonder if they have run through times, as I have, when I didn’t feel connected; didn’t feel that ritual and meditation were allowing me to gain a better understanding of the Gods and my world. I looked everywhere for some sort of guide to get me through this troublesome time, but there was nothing. Nor was there any information anywhere on how to achieve a higher state of awareness or Majick.
The only books that are available seem to be for beginners only–if you trust the author to be a true Pagan, and not some looney. Covens to join are few and far between, so there is no access to direct training. Maybe we need to make “jouneyman” information more available. That could also include training for those “crisis of faith” moments.
Since I had no where to turn to for advice, I went back to the basics: I dug out my copy of Starhawk’s “Drawing Down the Moon”, and have been practicing the meditations diligently, likewise I have concentrated on my connections to all things in these Worlds of ours. I’m beginning to feel the benefits of these daily exercises. Still, my hope for the future is to connect with more advanced guidance.
[...] « A Simple Truth… Where can we grow from here? January 6, 2009 So a recent article on The Wild Hunt has me thinking about my own spiritual journey, and the idea of ‘outgrowing [...]
[...] On Deo and Mandy ‘outgrowing paganism’ by Jason of The Wild Hunt (the comments to this post are fascinating, too!) [...]
Well said. As far as I'm concerned, any Christian who puts up a Christmas tree and participates in Easter egg hunts is a little bit eclectic.
[...] was sad to learn via The Wild Hunt: Outgrowing Paganism? that the excellent Deo’s Shadow will no longer be podcasting. It’s been pretty obvious for [...]
[...] I first posted about Pagan podcasters Deò and Mandy, and their transition to atheism, a remarkably vibrant and thoughtful discussion has emerged in the comments section (Nearing 100 [...]
[...] lot of people are saying they have outgrown Paganism; many more are saying Paganism needs to grow – to reassess its values, its anti-intellectualism, [...]
[...] Pitzl-Waters has a couple of posts that summarize the situation, along with other links to posts put up in response, and [...]
[...] 8, 2009 at 9:01 pm (Uncategorized) On the pagan blog, Wild Hunt, I was reading an entry about a longtime pagan podcaster, Deo, who is discontinuing his program because he is leaving [...]
[...] own community has seen a burst of creativity and discussion in the wake of The Wild Hunt’s recent article and recent update * about the end of the fine Pagan podcast Deos [...]
Interesting. I wonder if it's geography. I'm in Northern Ohio.
Cat, you are a guiding light. A star.
My experience is quite different. Most of the people I know who aren't pagans are blue collar and most of my pagan friends are educated professionals.
There are Asatru hofs in various places. Gladsheim Kindred converted a house into a hof and hold weekly events there. There are two or three others built on private land.
[...] on a recent entry to my favorite online blog, Wild Hunt. This entry dealt with the departure of two online Pagan Personalities who left the community to become atheists. This is not what caught my eye, as this is not an [...]
[...] have been brushing on the subject of the classic orthopraxy versus orthodoxy debate in religion. (HERE, HERE, and especially HERE.) One of the comments in particular in the middle of the back and [...]
[...] departures are also both useful for the explicit explanations Deo and Rev. Hovey give. Deo explicitly describes his epistemological disappointment with paganism [...]
We try our level best.
Robin, I've seen your eclipse/Eye of God material. I met you on UU lists under a different name.
What you're saying might not be popular, but I think it's true.
I'm pretty sure it was UU lists, before you were expelled (which I consider an injustice).
Were you a member of the NFL?
(National Forensic League for all those non-Speech and Debaters.)
Mandy,
Thanks for adding your thoughts to this discussion.
Well said Mrs.Flam!
Although as I think about it The Wild Hunt really is sort of the Pagan Newsweek analogue, huh?
I think the threaded comments here encourage more commentary, which is a feature I love about LJ. You may be seeing more of these in future.
Well, last I checked yours is the only Pagan blog I link to.
I've saved the link for later reading; it looks promising.
And they all want to be the one in charge…or at least have it near to them so they don't have to drive.
Congratulations on exceeding my expectations, then. >8) How many people do you have participating in the group at any given time?
[...] know this is a bit of an old topic, but I just wandered into it, so I hope you don’t [...]
[...] When I read articles like this one on The Wild Hunt http://wildhunt.org/blog/2009/01/outgrowing-paganism.html about people like Deo from Deo’s Shadow leaving Paganism for Atheism and like Carl [...]
[...] Some are making ruhl bold statements and inciting some heated debate. Some are just saying “y’all have fun with that – I’ll be over here with the Great No-Thing”… I’m sure there have been others I’ve [...]
[...] know this is a bit of an old topic, but I just wandered into it, so I hope you don’t [...]