The Florida Pagan Gathering: a community in crisis

345 thoughts on “The Florida Pagan Gathering: a community in crisis”

1. Well…I guess AJ Drew can rot in prison knowing that his personal campaign has achieved it’s goal. Where are the people that were supposed to be abused by the Frosts? Oh, wait…I would be one of those. Sorry to disappoint, but no, there was no abuse. I’ve offered to talk with folks before, but no one has ever taken me up on it.

   • From everything I’ve read, The Pagans For Change group has never accused the Frosts of abusing anyone. Their issue is with their written material, and teaching at FPG.

     • I know it’s been addressed before, and I thought it was done and over with, especially after Drew got popped for child abuse himself. If I recall correctly, the offending passage was removed, wasn’t it?

       • No. A later version had a disclaimer inserted, but the material was never removed.

         • I’d rather read a disclaimer, then to wonder were something went. I now have to go find a copy to read, so that I can form my own opinion.

         • Considering what was written, no, I don’t think a disclaimer is enough. I realise I’m pulling an extreme example out of my arse, but it’s to really drive the point home: If the KKK issued a “disclaimer” before a speaker at one of their rallies started going on “eradicating all the coloureds and Jews” and what-not, would you say that absolves them from liability if attendees were then influenced by that speaker to go ahead and murder people? I really hope you’d call that “disclaimer” complete BS, cos that’s what it amounts to in the Frosts’ book.

         • I would have to put forth the argument that as free, rational beings, we are each beholden ONLY unto ourselves. What on earth has happened to the thought behind the adage, “If so-and-so jumps off a cliff, will you follow?” You talk of personal responsibility on the part of these two.. does the burden of personal responsibility not extend anymore to others in regard to their own personal choices and actions? Surely you don’t intend to insinuate that you are capable of the depth of moral reasoning necessary to understand that sex with a minor is against the law, and not others… because that certainly treads within the area of moral superiority.

           This seems to me a case of a community striving unconsciously toward dogmatism and becoming less tolerant of differences in opinion, for fear of appearing less acceptable to a slowly warming general public, and because it is the nature of a community to eliminate differences and not encourage them. Should the Frosts have written a book outlining the monthly ritual sacrifice of one hundred and one virgin girls below the age of twelve, that is their personal choice to do so, knowing full well that acting upon what they’ve written is criminal, highly damaging to those involved, and to most, morally reprehensible. Let the same be said of any who make the personal choice to read the book. We are all adults here, and there are surely other ways to handle these differences than try to drive people away.

           I wholeheartedly agree that personal responsibility should rule in the Pagan community- but let it be applied equally to all within, to acknowledge our individual freedom and so avoid the pitfall of indoctrination and the mob mentality that has afflicted so many other religious paths.

         • You seem to forget that the legal limits to “free speech” includes something referred to in legalese as “imminent lawless action”, speech that advocates breaking the law (like having sex with minors below the age of consent –especially if one is in a position of authority, and especially if one is dispensing alcohol to the minor –all detailed in the Frosts’ book) when the violation is both imminent and likely to happen. Personal responsibility is all well and good, but what we say and do often has an effect on those around us –why do you and so many gods-damned LOLbertarians seem to be under the impression that the obligation to personal responsibilities ends when suddenly Person is directly responsible for inciting the actions of others? If you hire a hitman, you are just as responsible for the assassination as if you pull the trigger, yourself. If you knowingly tell a pædophile that the kid next door is left unsupervised between 3:30pm and 7:00pm and then invite him over for tea at four, and he wanders over next door at five, you’re legally considered an accessory to that kid’s rape. Even the California Supreme Court recognised Charles Manson’s key role in the Sharon Tate murder, in spite of the fact that he didn’t actually kill anyone, he only incited his followers to do it –good to know you’d let him walk!

           Personal responsibility includes taking responsibility for everything we do, even that which affects other people. Good thing your narcissistic fantasy isn’t recognised by any Western court.

         • Please try to make your points without veering into gratuitous political screeds. I’m a Libertarian, and I find this behavior reprehensible.

         • They all should be like you. Most Libertarians are just stoned tax-dodging professional whiners who get pant-bones looking at Guns N’ Ammo.

         • Wow… taking this crisis as an opportunity for cheap political shots? You should be ashamed.

         • You’re a Libertarian that what you should be ashamed of. Call me when you develop a political outlook thats not the equivalent of a two years old’ss “NO” phase.

         • Me and Berke Brethed, who has said to Salon.cm that he’d be a Libertarian, himself, “if they weren’t all tax-dodging professional whiners.” Gotta love the Master Penguin-Drawer.

         • Is there any other kind of political shot? :

         • No.

         • Annontated constitution. If you are going to talk about limits on speech and law, that is where you go.

           http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt1efrag1_user.html

         • Obviously there are those who have difficulty making those moral distinctions, as child sexual abuse exists. And again, there is surely nothing wrong with a spiritual community demanding wisdom, not folly, from its leaders and teachers.

           What is at stake, after all, is not the Frosts’ right to hold their opinion, but a community that is no longer willing to promote that opinion.

         • Real community is not a bunch of individuals doing their own things –a community has, you know, UNITY. One can still be an individual, but the freedoms of the individual end when the sanctity of the community becomes endangered.

           It really bothers me that people are treating this as they would the totally benign choices and opinions —like feelings on Enya’s music or the presence or absence of feta in a spanikopita— or any other things that should be inconsequential to “big tent paganism” —like being a member of COG or Hellenion. This isn’t one of those inconsequential things, not at all.

         • Everybody speaking out on this is exercising free speech. The Frosts published and continued to publish their views; the government has not stepped in to tell them they can’t do that. Free speech reigns. The rest of us who are repulsed by this are speaking out on the issue and also speaking out in various ways on who we want to see talk at our gatherings. Free speech reigns.

           The Frosts, as free people, can choose freely what means the most to them: this opinion, or the respect and admiration (and dollars) of their target audience. No one has taken away that right.

           The rest of us get to choose freely who we want to see at a gathering. And those who want to continue to see Gavin and Yvonne Frost can congregate and have the Frosts down for their own gathering, should those people be in the minority.

           Free speech reigns.

         • That would be commonsense. Sadly something that is lacking these days.
           We all ‘should’ know to read and listen and hold it up to scrutiny.

           Hold it up to our personal moral compass.

         • If the Frosts’ initiating-the-underage-with-sex passage is something we’re all proud of, why doesn’t someone just post it here so we can all read it?

         • Since you can’t seem to do your own research, here you go – http://tuecaa.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/protecting-pedophiles-and-holding-wicca-accountable-quoted-text-post/

         • Did I say I was proud of it? I didn’t. But if I were to read a book that had been amended in any form. I’d like to know.

           Perhaps, it’s the OCD in me. I can’t even start tv shows just anywhere either. 🙂

       • AJ Drew was NEVER popped for child abuse. Where the fuck did you get that lie?
         And, no that passage was never removed, in fact the Frosts still defend it.

         • Thank you!!

         • Former Pagan author AJ Drew has apparently converted to Catholicism, and is in the midst of an ugly custody battle with his wife, who he is accusing of ongoing domestic (and possibly sexual) abuse. Here’s the relevant quote concerning his current religious status.

           “I think it is fairly clear that religious discrimination can be added to sexual discrimination. In court, as if this were the 16th century, I have been accused of being a Witch. This either because several years ago I wrote some New Age titles or because today I am a practicing Catholic. I can not be sure why they are so concerned with my religious preferences, but the supervisor demanded that I tell her my religious preferences in court while she was testifying against my sanity. It was as if she felt all Catholics or members of other religions to which she does not subscribe are insane.”

           As to the issues of abuse, and the custody of his children, I have no idea what the situation truly is. Nor do I feel inclined to venture a guess. Custody cases, especially ones where abuse is alleged, can be quagmires of competing narratives and claims, the results often pleasing no-one. You can read AJ Drew’s side of the story here, and here. Readers can follow up on them, or not, as they wish. As for further coverage here, it’s clear that a connection to the wider Pagan community is no longer desired by Drew (now going by Andrew Schlomann), so barring extraordinary circumstances, I’ll respect those wishes.

           – See more at: http://wildhunt.org/tag/aj-drew#sthash.qDHsHcdj.dpuf

           The wild hunt at
           http://wildhunt.org/tag/aj-drew
           http://wildhunt.org/tag/aj-drew

       • AJ was never “popped” for child abuse. That was a rumor that was allegedly started by Gavin & Yvonne Frost.

         • Wow, they make up all sorts of lies, don’t they?

         • CITATION NEEDED. Or is just starting another hateful rumor your intention??

         • What is up with the word “hate” being used over and over? How can we have an intelligent conversation when the word “Hate” is being thrown willy-nilly? I’m getting really tired of of all these hysterics. It’s like we’re back in highschool, rather than intelligent and rational adults.

           First of all I said allegedly but, I’m very glad you asked because I no longer have to say allegedly :-). They scoured police records for an AJ Drew and found what they say was AJ’s eldest daughter who filed an injunction against AJ due to abuse. PS, AJ doesn’t have an elder daughter. Here is it from the Frosts’ own blog (be sure to read the comments, too)- http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com/2007/09/plausible-evasions.html

         • Thank you! That was indeed interesting reading and food for thought!

         • Wow, big-time liars and rumourmongerers.

         • The problem is that not everyone who comes to our Pagan umbrella is discerning enough to see through BS. They swallow everything their teachers say as if were drops of pure truth.

           People, a good teacher doesn’t want you to believe everything they tell you. They don’t tell you what to believe; they give you to tools to find out for yourself. To paraphrase a certain proverb: they don’t give you the fish; they teach you to fish.

         • You want us to find a citation that AJ wasn’t popped for child abuse. That is not how citations work. Perhaps you might want to find a citation concerning him abusing children. Find that and we’ll talk.

         • Oh honey… That’s not how Burden of Proof works. Keep trying, though.

         • It seems that Dandy C and Candy D have left the building.

         • Still here.

         • Hello, I couldn’t click on your’s or Candy C’s name. I apologize for my assumption.

   • Whatever else he may have done, if Drew bears a substantial responsibility for igniting this debate, he’s done some real good in the world.

   • No one writes a ritual with out the intention to preform it. They wrote this ritual and had it PUBLISHED! Did they really think this was ok? Do you really think sex with minor children is ok?

     • The specifics of this case notwithstanding, if you think “no one writes a ritual” without the intent to perform it, you don’t know very many published Pagan authors.

       • The authors I know have done all the rites that they’ve published.

         • Nonsense.

         • I can see that your psychic abilities are working so well that you’re able to crawl into my brain and see all of my author friends and what they’ve written. Wow, you’re amazing! You should have your own TV show!

           Perhaps you should change your name from Bob_Knows to Bob_knows_everything!

         • CITATION NEEDED. Name them so we can contact them for verification of your statement.

         • Seriously, what is your problem? Am I the only one you’re attacking? This is the second “citation needed” in all caps. I’d rather not answer your question because I’m not fond of dealing with trolls. Seriously, ” Name them so we can contact them for verification of your statement”? Who are you, my professor? Please! And you would be so rude as to contact each one to ask them if they really did all the spells and rites they wrote (even though they said so in their books)? You’re unbelievable! OK, go ahead and make a fool of yourself – Kris Bradley’s Mrs B’s Guide to Household Witchery, Deborah Lipp’s The Way of Four, Victoria David Danann’s Seasons of the Witch Primer, Draja Mickaharic’ Spiritual Cleansing, Starhawk + Diane Baker + Anne Hill’s Circle Round. I could go on and on but, I have a life and a family that needs my attention.

         • Thank you. I will be contacting the authors you have mentioned for their comments. Other than Starhawk I’ve never heard of any of them but I’ll be sure to tell them you sent me!

           And no, it is not just you and it is not personal. I am just over this “witch hunt” as others have put it. The vitriol and lies need to stop, the regurtating of falsehoods need to stop.

         • The vitriol and lies need to stop, the regurtating of falsehoods need to stop.

           The Frosts really need to quit spreading lies and falsehoods –about themselves and others.

         • My answer is above.

         • Then stop speaking. Also pick up a copy of Turabian and get back to us about citations work.

         • *snorts*
           🙂
           *goes back and folds laundry*

         • I’ll just pop in here to confirm that I’ve worked every spell, every ritual in my book. So there is one “citation”, Candy D.

           Anyone who prints a ritual that they have not performed and perfected through use is no true magical/spiritual practitioner to me.

           The Frosts didn’t have a disclaimer that “this ritual is here for historical information only” – they added, after the fact, a disclaimer that it should only be done to those 18+.

           Why that disclaimer if they didn’t mean for the ritual to be enacted? If they didn’t think that people would take the use of the word “child” in the original ritual to literally mean a child?

     • Gavin was a father of two daughters when his book was published. Do responsible parents write non-fiction books teaching that it’s okay for a father to help his 12 year old daughter insert her dildo?

   • AJ is alive a well, never was in prison. Here’s his story http://www.ajdrew.com/magick-vulgarity-and-the-frosts/

   • AJ Drew is not in prison and never has been.

     http://www.ajdrew.com/my-time-in-prison/

2. I believe that it is very healthy for Pagans to be having this discussion. It may be painful, but we’ve all seen what happens when religions, such as Catholicism, push the issue into the shadows and do more to protect priests or elders than to protect those who are vulnerable to abuse.

   • Except we don’t get to have discussions. All to often something like this blows up and becomes #activism instead of dealing with the issues.

     • It was the board’s decision to to not to have the discussion. In fact they actively worked to suppress it. They are responsible for the direction this debate took and the subsequent activism.

       • In this case yes. However my comment was more focused on the hashtag style of activism the results from these situations growing beyond the original discussion ( or lack there of).

       • Why wasn’t this discussion held LAST Beltain, when the Frosts were in attendance at FPG? Or the Beltain before that? Why wasn’t this discussion held back in JANUARY when the person responsible for putting together the workshop schedule was given the information that the Frosts were going to be in attendance? WHY did Ray and his band of lackeys wait until 28 days before the festival to bring this all up, instead of dealing with it at February’s staff retreat?? Wouldn’t THAT have been a much better forum than tearing down a festival on Facebook? Or was the glamor of a public forum more attractive?

         It seems to me that a lot of people do NOT have the full story and the Board of Directors were never given a chance to even react to the FIRST request for a comment. The BoD are not paid, they are volunteers with their own personal lives. They live all over the State of Florida, have daytime jobs, and getting everyone together on a phone call is probably not particularly easy for them. You people who have been bashing the Board without even remotely knowing what you are talking about are making me sick to death. And now that you and your fringe ilk have placed the festival grounds at risk, I certainly hope that you reap the karma if the festival has to close because they lose the grounds.

         I have been attending FPG for over 20 years (before they even moved to St.Petersburg) and fully support the Board of Directors and the work they do. Not a hundredfold of you together could do what they have done over the years. For this and the next few festivals I am paying full price for my attendance and will be donating my time to fill in for any of the former staff who walked off their jobs. If you have nothing to do to support the festival, stay away and let those of us who do support FPG do what we need to do to try and rebuild what you have all attempted to tear down. Love it or LEAVE it, as far as I am concerned.

         Finally, I am pretty disgusted with Wild Hunt for an obviously one-sided article. One little paragraph from the Board and the rest of the article dedicated to those who would have the festival in ruins. Seems about as fair and equal as FOX news. I have followed this blog for years now, I don’t think I will be after now.

         • This article quotes the FPG board four times in the piece, and includes links to full statements at the bottom of the article. I’m sorry you feel it is unbalanced.

         • “Links to full statements AT THE BOTTOM OF THE ARTICLE” vs. full statements by the detractors of FPG in the body of the article. That’s sort of like putting a retraction of an above-the-fold front-page article back on page F-24, isn’t it?

           And I find it curious that comments from people who are not even a part of the FPG community are included. Orion Foxwood is not a part of the FPG community, He is coming as a paid headliner. Any controversy he creates around himself just helps him sell books and bolsters his workshop attendance. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds him when it is too late to replace him.

         • Candy,

           Links to full statements from both sides were included at the bottom of the article. Both sides were excerpted.

           Orion was quoted because he is a featured guest of FPG.

         • YES LET THE HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU! USE CAPS LOCK FOR MAXIMUM WIN NEXT TIME!

         • The use of caps lock for effect is commonly used when font styles like italics or bold are not available. Of course, if you had any serious writing or editing skills you would know that. Maybe we should get you a box of crayons and some drawing paper so you can make your point more clear next time.

         • “if you had any serious skills” you’d know that DisQus comments take HTML markup for italics and bold and strikethru and underlined text, and more.

         • Considering this is the first I have ever taken the time to comment on this or any other DisQus forum, and saw none of the usual “pop up” editing features, I assumed it was a text-only reply. I will be SURE (caps added for extra sarcastic effect) to use them where appropriate!

           Thank you ever so much for that helpful information!

         • You are welcome. Helping those who cannot help themselves is a hobby of mine.

         • I’m happy you an Ruadhan helped me! I’m a little embarrassed to say that I didn’t even think about HTML. But, I’ve learned that I can do the same things with the ctrl button – for crtl I for italics. Just goes to show that you can learn something new everyday.

         • Alt+ codes are nifty, too!

         • “And I find it curious that comments from people who are not even a part of the FPG community are included. Orion Foxwood is not a part of the FPG community, He is coming as a paid headliner. Any controversy he creates around himself just helps him sell books and bolsters his workshop attendance. Nothing like biting the hand that feeds him when it is too late to replace him.”

           Orion Foxwood decides his integrity and his honor are worth more to him than a paycheck from the Florida Pagan Gathering. Unable to understand those concepts, an FPG director immediately assumes this was a publicity stunt to “sell books and [bolster] his workshop attendance.”

           What does this tell us about Orion Foxwood? And about the FPG Board of Directors?

         • >Orion Foxwood decides his integrity and his honor are
           >worth more to him
           than a paycheck from the Florida Pagan
           >Gathering. Unable to understand
           those concepts, an FPG
           >director immediately assumes this was a publicity
           stunt to
           >”sell books and [bolster] his workshop attendance.”

           Then let him cancel his apperance to the festival. I’m sure fewer will miss him than the Frosts. I am not a director of the festival, only a long-time participant who is disgusted over the attacks and second-guessing of volunteers who give up their free time to put on FPG for the rest of us.

         • People are leaving it. They’re also allowed to express their reasons why they are leaving – unless you’re trying to say everyone has to be hush hush when they don’t like something, which is hardly a position I think is helpful to community building.

           Also – people DID bring up their issue with the Frosts being there. Just because you weren’t aware of it doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

         • Here’s a better question: Why did it take “Ray and his band of lackeys” PLUS a whistleblower, to do the right thing? Even if we accept the absurdly improbably idea that no one raise objections earlier, did the rest of the board have no knowledge of history or the capacity for common sense to anticipate why this choice of presenters would be problematic? Further, is 28 days really too soon to reverse a catastrophically poor decision after hundreds of people point this out?

3. This was a very balanced article and I appreciate that fact. I would argue that, had the TEG listened to the overwhelming concern that the community offered, rather than digging in and responding with patterned and dismissive posts; I doubt it would have ever come to a situation where the actual location became endangered. I still, however, believe that it is a conversation that needs to occur and, perhaps, it was necessary that it be so very assertive in order to make plain to the larger community what most Pagans wish to endorse.

4. “What’s ironic is that the very thing [moral panic] that caused FPG to come into existence is the same thing that the community is facing today.”

   What an absolute, umitigated, five-star asshole. When this all began, I assumed the leaders responsible for signing and retaining the Frosts were just not very sophisticated at public relations and just not seeing the big picture.

   Turns out they, or at least this one, simply doesn’t care. If you’re raising concerns about the Frost’s level of involvement in the festival, you’re no different than the narrow-minded Christian fundies who attack us for being pagan. A prude, an agitator, a witch hunter. The attitude of this board has been “we’re in charge, we say there’s no problem, and anyone who says otherwise is an outsider with an agenda.” I award this board member and those of like mind the first annual Bill Donahue Award.

   To whoever blew this thing wide open, good on them. If I ever find out who it is and they come up to Chicago for any reason, dinner and drinks are on me, anywhere you want, for real.

   I can’t tell you how much this gladdens my heart and raises my opinion of a community which I didn’t think had the guts to police itself. It’s unfortunate it went down this way, but our people, the “little people” of this movement, are showing that they’re not going to be led like sheep into collusion with evil, as were the Catholics. The message this sends is that we WILL have transparent and accountable and responsible leaders, one way or another.

   • We can take care of this problem once and for all. See, I know where they live!!

     You bring 5 gal. of gasoline, 20 of your friends from Pagans For Change, and some bottles and rags. I have lots of axes, hatchets, big knives, etc. Easy-peasy.

     You have to learn the chant, but it’s easy too. “Burn the witches! Burn the WITCHES! BURN THE WITCHES!!!” Think you can do that by Tuesday?

     I’l be in touch. It’ll be the coolest Pagan gathering ever.

   • You and me both. If FPG won’t do the right thing because it’s the right thing, maybe they’ll do it because it’s the only way to keep their event open.

   • Yes. Whoever went to the campground did the right thing.

5. There is so much hate in some parts of the pagan community that they would rather destroy paganism than tolerate anyone with a different opinion. I’ve been in that position, where some community killed a pagan gathering by similar hateful behavior. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.When hate is called “healing” and bigotry is called “tolerance,” I can assure you that I won’t be attending.FPG.

   • Because hating people who advocate sex with minors is so wrong?

     • This is the kind of comment that cheapens us all. Its framed in a way that prevents discussion and makes the poster feel witty. So very sad. This folks is why we can’t have nice things.

       • Yes, hateful attacks to drive out someone who has a different opinion (Frost) is a way to facilitate reasonable discussions. Got it.

         • When the “different opinion” promotes the sexual abuse of minors, it is not subject to debate or discussion. What the consequence of not only holding, but promoting that opinion is… that is a matter for discussion.

       • I guess I am not sure what there is to discuss? Have I missed an aspect of the debate?

     • It is not necessary to hate someone in order to set limits on their actions. And it isn’t bigotry to hold leaders accountable for their published works, works that have never been repudiated, and which call for actions the vast majority of Pagans find morally reprehensible.

       The leaders and teachers of a wisdom tradition need to be held to a high moral standard. Happily, that’s the standard that is now being applied… though I could wish it had come about because the board of FPG came to see that point.

   • I really hope you’re being ironic.

   • Bob, that attitude is one of the reasons I will never take my daughter to a Pagan festival. I have no problem with clothing-optional events and I would have no problem with Annamaria playing naked with other children while other adults (clothed and otherwise) were going about their business.

     I would have a problem with somebody watching Annamaria from the bushes and masturbating, taking pictures of her, touching her inappropriately, etc. And if that happened at a Pagan event and the offender was sufficiently popular, I am now certain that any complaints we made would go unheard: it’s our word against his, he was just being friendly, we should forgive and let go of our anger, etc. If we went to the police with our concerns, there’s a better than even chance that the organizers and others would scramble to protect the offender rather than my daughter. And if the offender were convicted and sent to prison, a significant proportion of our “community” would accuse us of being liars who victimized an innocent rather than vice versa. Because avoiding a “Witch War” or a “new SRA hysteria” trumps standing up to egregious misdeeds.

     • Kenaz, I’m generally a pacifist, in that I abhor violence as a response, but I make exceptions: in your scenario, were I to witness an adult sexually assaulting one of my daughters, he or she would be lucky to end up unconscious along with bruised and bloody. I would restrain myself somewhat if the behavior was from a distance (the bushes), but I would act.

       We have become a culture, all other aspects being irrelevant, of people who fear to act because (differing only in degree) we are as bad or worse than the rude person or bully for speaking out or acting. I cannot see that as anything but insane. 🙁

     • Well, Kenaz, the alleged “egregious misdeeds” in this discussion seems to be something someone wrote as a small part of a book several decades ago. To characterize it as “victimizing an innocent” is being a liar who falsely accuses as part of a mass hysteria witch hunt. Sham on the whole witch hunt. We of all people ought to know better.

       • Glad to see that you read my entire post explaining why I no longer felt safe bringing my daughter to Pagan gatherings and got nothing out of it save that I am “a liar who falsely accuses as part of a mass hysteria.” Which was, of course, precisely the point I was trying to make.

         BTW, remember posting this?

         ****

         Discussion on The Daily Caller
         Taxpayer-funded community college BANS WHITE PEOPLE from staff happy hour
         Bob_Knows • 25 days ago
         The Diversity and Equity Center, and similar organizations at virtually every college and university in the US, exist only to promote anti-white racism, anti-men sexism, and anti-straight perversion, and a socialist state single mother future. There is no other purpose for her job or the college’s support of her racist, sexist operation. The anti-white political meeting was fully in keeping with the goals and purpose of the operation. It is the SAME at every other college in the US.

         ****

         I presume all those underage women who accused your buddy Kenny Klein of inappropriate contact were just part of an anti-white, anti-male, anti-straight socialist single-mother conspiracy?

     • That’s why you need to issue it in an appropriate caliber.
       I recommend 9mm, .357, .40, .10mm, 44 or the always popular .45. Jacketed hollow points or semi wadcutters get the point across best.

   • Advocating sex WITH CHILDREN is not a “different opinion”. It is advocating harm to children. Period. And you are DEFENDING that. You are defending people who think screwing children is good religious doctrine. What is WRONG WITH YOU?

     Harming children SHOULD be reviled. Always. By everyone. Anyone who advocates harming children is a bad person. This is true as much in Pagan circles as in Catholic. Wanting not to give a platform or support to people who advocate sex with children is not hate. It is morality.

     What will damage and destroy paganism is advocating harm, and defending those who advocate harm. We are acting to protect vulnerable people. You are acting to protect people who would do harm. You are the one doing things that will destroy the pagan community.

     • There are no allegations that anyone has harmed any children. This kind of over the top hateful rhetoric is dishonest and offensive. We are talking about a small part of a book written 40 years ago. Its always disappointing when this kind of over the top hate speech is tolerated and even promoted in pagan spaces.

6. They are guilty of thought-crime! Bad-think! Thirty years ago!

   They must be stoned! Exiled! Driven in the Wilderness! Their names will never be spoken again!

   The American Pagan community, like the country at large, is increasingly subject to moral panics.

   • Moral panics? No. Our community is increasingly subject to moral reasoning and maturity. May it continue apace.

   • What this community needs is another Witch War. NOT!

     • Because witch wars are SO much worse than standing up to sexual predators and their enablers.

       • No, Kenaz. I have seen no allegations of sexual predators. Ramping up the witch war, witch hunt hysteria from disliking a small part of a book written 40 years or so ago to “standing up to sexual predators” is the worst kind of hateful false accusations. We do not need that kind of lies, false accusations, and hate in our community.

         • “We do not need that kind of lies, false accusations, and hate in our community.”

           Just out of curiosity, how many “false accusations” of rape, sexual abuse or inappropriate conduct with minors have been flung in your direction?

         • Counting you?

         • In other words, more than one. As I expected.

           Here’s some more wit and wisdom from Bob. I wonder why it is that he believes nobody gives a rat’s behind about the folks living in Spanish Harlem and Washington Heights.

           *****
           Discussion on CNN
           Nine still missing after Manhattan explosion leaves at least 4 dead, 63 hurt

           Bob_Knows • a month ago
           CLUE: Out past 140 St, nobody gives a rat’s behind what happens in that cess pool.

         • Why are you dredging up comments that he wrote elsewhere?

         • Bob_Knows, one of the loudest defenders of Kenny Klein and the Frosts, has posted quite a few racist and homophobic rants. He’s joined by Nightshade09, another Klein/Frost defender and self-proclaimed “Confederate.” Then there’s Frost devotee Richard D. Thomas, who thinks we should have “White History Month.”

           In other words, it seems like many of the people who are most worried about false rape accusations etc. are also Angry White Men who regularly complain about being TEH OPPRESSED. Funny, that.

         • Homophobic or Racist (by your judgments) are not part of this discussion. It’s just using his other arguments to say he’s an icky person in this discussion.

           I’m also someone who is worries about false rape accusations. I’ve cited my worry with stuff that is pulled from good sources(see Yvonees thing). I’m white but I’m not a guy, and i”m also someone who has experienced molestation.

           I’m also someone who uses history. This is gearing up to be another SRA panic. Only instead of others doing it to us, we will do it to ourselves, and we aren’t even bothering to take a moment to critically think. Anyone who is a detractor is deemed angry white guy so pretty much to be ignored.

           Very few in this community have the training, or work experience to figure stuff out. Heck even the professionals get it wrong(see project innocence)

           First off

           It’s a public Pagan gathering. Are background checks (on all states not just one state) done on all guests and presenters?(can they even afford it)

           Second
           Most people who experience molestation, it will be done to them by someone known to them(friend or relative) and known to the parents.

           The only way to protect against that, is to nurture your childs instinct. Don’t force them to interact with people they don’t want to. Listen to your own instinct. Nothing else can protect them, and even listening to your instincts isn’t fail proof.

           Make reasonable rules. If an accusation is made, then bloody hell, don’t bring it up to the people in charge at the gathering, bring it up to the police.

           Oh and btw, in the case of Aj Drew, you won’t find a criminal thing. It’s a family court matter, and therefore closed. Family court also uses the preponderance of guilt, as opposed to the criminal, beyond a reasonable doubt.

         • I’m also someone who uses history. This is gearing up to be another SRA panic. Only instead of others doing it to us, we will do it to ourselves, and we aren’t even bothering to take a moment to critically think. Anyone who is a detractor is deemed angry white guy so pretty much to be ignored.

           So we’re going to start putting Pagans in prison for decades? Executing them? Taking away their children?

           Oh, wait. We don’t have the power to do that. All we can do is disinvite them from our company, or exclude ourselves from theirs. So let’s keep this in proper perspective, shall we.

           Oh and btw, in the case of Aj Drew, you won’t find a criminal thing. It’s a family court matter, and therefore closed. Family court also uses the preponderance of guilt, as opposed to the criminal, beyond a reasonable doubt.

           And after all your concern about keeping this discussion on topic, you derail it by repeating a lie started by the Frosts. Tsk, tsk. I expected better. Actually, I didn’t, so never mind.

         • No, I didn’t repeat the lie, i copy and pasted from the wild hunt an article of his wife, when they were going through a divorce, her accusation. I also linked it. I also pointed out why you would not find a criminal history, because family court is not open, the same way criminal court is. Then I pointed the difference between family and criminal court, which you can verfiy by going to find law.

           Do point out where I repeated a lie started by the Frosts? I deliberately did not read the stuff about AJ Drew and the Frosts that was posted on the Wild hunt in 2007. The Divorce thing was from 2010, and the accusation was his wife.

           And yes, making false accusations, and the court believing them does put innocent people in prison for years, and/or, if it goes to family court, you have your kids taken away, Even though Family court doesn’t put people in Prison.

         • No, I didn’t repeat the lie, i copy and pasted from the wild hunt an article of his wife, when they were going through a divorce, her accusation. I also linked it.

           If you wouldn’t mind humoring me and reposting that Wild Hunt article of his wife, along with a link to the original article on Wild Hunt, I’d be most appreciative. Because you didn’t do anything of the sort on this thread.

           And yes, making false accusations, and the court believing them does put innocent people in prison for years, and/or, if it goes to family court, you have your kids taken away, Even though Family court doesn’t put people in Prison.

           Since we’re talking about a Pagan festival, not a family court, I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at. Nobody is talking about imprisoning the Frosts, taking away their children, or signing them up for an Obamacare death panel. The question is about whether it is appropriate for a festival to support speakers who have advocated sexual molestation and who have never repudiated that position.

           Unlike you and Ruadhan, (libertarian insults as well as other crap) I am keeping this in perspective.

           Because being disinvited from a festival is SO much like spending a couple decades in prison or having your children put in foster care. Yep, that’s perspective, all right.

         • Because being disinvited from a festival is SO much like spending a couple decades in prison or having your children put in foster care. Yep, that’s perspective, all right.

           Goddamm, I think I might love you.

         • Former Pagan author AJ Drew has apparently converted to Catholicism, and is in the midst of an ugly custody battle with his wife, who he is accusing of ongoing domestic (and possibly sexual) abuse. Here’s the relevant quote concerning his current religious status.

           “I think it is fairly clear that religious discrimination can be added to sexual discrimination. In court, as if this were the 16th century, I have been accused of being a Witch. This either because several years ago I wrote some New Age titles or because today I am a practicing Catholic. I can not be sure why they are so concerned with my religious preferences, but the supervisor demanded that I tell her my religious preferences in court while she was testifying against my sanity. It was as if she felt all Catholics or members of other religions to which she does not subscribe are insane.”

           As to the issues of abuse, and the custody of his children, I have no idea what the situation truly is. Nor do I feel inclined to venture a guess. Custody cases, especially ones where abuse is alleged, can be quagmires of competing narratives and claims, the results often pleasing no-one. You can read AJ Drew’s side of the story here, and here. Readers can follow up on them, or not, as they wish. As for further coverage here, it’s clear that a connection to the wider Pagan community is no longer desired by Drew (now going by Andrew Schlomann), so barring extraordinary circumstances, I’ll respect those wishes.

           – See more at: http://wildhunt.org/tag/aj-drew#sthash.kZFD2SoP.dpuf

           http://wildhunt.org/tag/aj-drew

           Being dis-invited to a large Pagan festival is being ostracized. They had been to that festival years prior. There is no need to take them out now, when no one thought to raise a stink about it before.

           Dis inviting the Frosts does not make this festival any safer. Having them there(despite their absurd, based on bad anthropological scholarship) does not make this festival any more dangerous.

           Ok they wrote something squicky, 40 years ago, and haven’t retracted it from their books. So if you go, don’t go to their workshops and let your lack of presence be known. If others choose to attend their workshops and they are adults, it’s of their own choice.

           If you want, I’ll find the non MRA links on false accusations. But that will have to wait, a few hours and I think it’s coming close to this thread closing. I did post them on Yvonnes post. Which I have a huge problem with what she is advocating.

         • Being dis-invited to a large Pagan festival is being ostracized.

           So? Sometimes, it’s necessary.

           There is no need to take them out now, when no one thought to raise a stink about it before.

           Except that people have. You choose to ignore this fact because it doesn’t fit into the pre-conceived notions you have –or you just don’t give a shit. Possibly both.

           If you want, I’ll find the non MRA links on false accusations.

           Only about 2-8% of allegations of rape have been shown to be false, by most reliable studies (linked to a single blog full of reputable sources, for the sake of brevity).
           http://amptoons.com/blog/2009/04/15/eugene-kanins-study-of-false-rape-reports/

           Likewise, false allegations of child sexual abuse have shown to be less than 10%, as well.

           …but these aren’t stats supported by MRAs, so who knows if you’ll accept them?

         • There’s really no use talking to Bianca Bradley — she’s an MRA and staunch defender of Fo(au)x News, and she’s left enough comments to that effect on my blog and others. Please don’t assume that cos she’s a woman that she’s any better.

         • No, I’m an egalitarian who has no use for modern feminism. I have no issue with Fox, but I like other sources better. If you are going to decry me, then do it with facts and not more emotional hyperbole. Plus your hatred of Fox has no bearing on my response to Kenan.

           Yes I do believe the mens rights people have something to say. I listen to them and the other sides. I’m not going to discount with someone has to say, because they are white or have a penis. Nor does someones skin content make them a better person to listen to.

         • No, I’m an egalitarian who has no use for modern feminism.

           Yeah, a lot of MRAs want other people to believe that.

         • (Note: I was replying to Bianca Bradley, not Ruadhan. Apologies for any confusion).

           Thanks for the link above and sorry I missed it earlier. Since AJ Drew isn’t presenting at FPG (or anywhere else), I’m not sure what his divorce has to do with the matter at hand. But then, I was confused about the SRA analogies as well.

           Being dis-invited to a large Pagan festival is being ostracized. They had been to that festival years prior. There is no need to take them out now, when no one thought to raise a stink about it before.

           You know, the Frosts could have saved everybody a whole lot of trouble with a simple “we were wrong then and we’re sorry about it.” Instead they insisted on sticking to their guns. Funny how you think everyone else is being unreasonable, but don’t think the Frosts should be held accountable for their own actions. Even when “accountable” means nothing more than being pulled from a festival roster.

   • Yes, the majority would rather wield a Pitchfork and join in the crowd hysteria. Then getting facts and honest discussion.

     • I have all the facts I need right here, open on my lap to the passage in question, and it’s been on our bookshelf for 20 years. It was idiotic and naive when it published, but perhaps somewhat forgiveable because those heady days post-Sexual Revolution were rather idiotic and extremely naive. 30 years down the road, it’s stupid and reprehensible and shows, frankly, that the Frosts have no concept of healthy sexual boundaries or healthy young adult sexuality.

       • Well then you are doing what many don’t.
         Reading the ‘source’

   • This became such a hot topic because of the KK arrest – because many of us remember that “witch war.” From where I viewed it back then, the pitchforks were chasing down the victims, to quiet them before the community could be blemished. I think I’d rather see the pitchforks in the hands of those trying to protect future generations than to protect the status quo.

     But also, for the record, as one of those with an active interest in this gathering, we were willing to let the Frost’s attend as paying patrons, we just did not want them presenting, nor getting deferential treatment, such as free room and board. There were MANY reasonable voices, but it’s easy to ignore us when the angry yelling drowns out the reasoned discourse.

     • From where I viewed it back then, the pitchforks were chasing down the victims, to quiet them before the community could be blemished. I think I’d rather see the pitchforks in the hands of those trying to protect future generations than to protect the status quo.

       Beautifully said.

   • Actually, they wrote that book forty years ago –but then I got adequate marks in maths.

     • I’m pretty sure the “thirty years ago” was referencing the book “1984”, from which the prior statements “They are guilty of thought-crime! Bad-think!” originated, and wasn’t a reference to the date the Frost’s book was published.

       • Nope. I know that because I got high marks in reading comprehension. You read pretty one day.

       • Eh, you’re probably right on that, looking it over again. Either way, it’s histrionics that are totally inappropriate, given the situation.

   • They are guilty of bad *teaching*, not bad “thought”, about something they still stand by (it’s anthropological!). In response, some people are asking that they not be invited presenters– not guests, presenters– with their way paid for by the festival. Having standards for one’s leaders, that obviously equates with exile and stoning. The hyperbole is shameful.

     (The backlash we’re seeing is also exactly what happens when communities choose to sweep their problems under the rug instead of dealing with them with transparency. Hushing up a problem never solves it, it only postpones it and magnifies how big the backlash will be when it finally comes out. Oh, how superior Pagans are about Catholics, and yet did we learn a bloody thing from watching their community tear itself apart? That’s the best way to lose people’s trust, to utterly lose a movement’s moral authority, and it’s damn hard if not impossible to get it back once it’s gone. You either have this conversation with transparency and dignity, or you sweep it under the rug and have it blow up on the internet. Too many corners of the Pagan community chose not to do the former, so they get the latter. That was a choice, and I hope events and orgs are taking a lesson from it.)

     • Northern_Light_27, the anthropologists I know are horrified. The bases cited by the Frosts do not approach being an anthropological foundation for their writing.

       • That doesn’t mean that they aren’t still making those claims for their fool-headed ideas.

       • /nod Sometimes sarcasm doesn’t translate perfectly through the internet. My “it’s anthropological!” was intended as the complete opposite of “a good guess on ancient practice after reading the following citations” and more “it’s magical anthropology! because reasons!”

7. These conversations have been good for the community. As we discuss ways to keep our community safe from those who would cause harm we move closer to living the values our community professes. At the same time there have been many posts about the community judging anyone who makes anyone uncomfortable. There is room for both credible community policies on abusive behavior and ethical rules on how we deal with accusations. People need to be heard by events and tradition leaders when such accusations are made to prevent victim blaming and safeguard our community. We also need not take at face value such statements. Their is a possibility that recent events could lead to a “Moral Panic” in our community. Sound policies that encourage investigation prior to making such accusations public can serve the community well. We can protect our community from damage and at the same time develop the ability to act with discernment.

8. I have not read the book so I can’t add a whole lot to this, but in response to the reference made by Orion regarding the Frost’s encouragement of sex with minors as part of a supposed traditional practice, I have this to say: We need to remember that we are modern people, living in a modern world, with pacts made with society at large. Much “traditional” practice comes from earlier eras where there may have been very different ideas about the age of consent. Many “traditional” practices are not appropriate today. (If they ever were). As I write this I think “This sounds like it comes straight from the desk of Captain Obvious, but given the Pagan community’s risk for going the way of Catholicism, perhaps it needs to be pointed out. I am all for being edgy and unconventional, but let’s not do it the way the Frost’s advocate, m’kay?

   • if you want to read the controversial text in question from the Frost’s book you can find it excerpted here http://tuecaa.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/protecting-pedophiles-and-holding-wicca-accountable-quoted-text-post/

   • You know, even if we assume the Frosts wrote this in terms of an “ancient tradition” that is not necessarily relevant today, I find their scholarship dubious. Their blog contains a short piece about temple prostitution that is one of the most ill-informed pieces on the topic I’ve ever read, even making concessions for its length. They don’t start from research, they start from their opinion and cherry-pick the archaeology, history, and even long-discredited and disproved ideas as “sources”, so long as it supports their opinion. I wouldn’t trust anything they wrote about “ancient traditions” to be any better researched than Margaret Murray’s allegations that Joan d’Arc “was a willing sacrifice for the witch-cult”.

     Considering their forty-plus years in paganism, they really seem to be among the most ill-informed people I’ve yet come across.

     • Those ill-informed people are the founding reason that we Pagans can call ourselves churches. The Frosts took their case to have the “Church of Wicca” to the Supreme Court. I wonder where we would be without the foundations they and other early neo-Pagans laid out for us?

       • We’d probably have been better off without the Frosts, in all honesty, considering they have tried repeatedly to erase the actual history of Wicca to instead focus the spotlight on themselves.

         • Agreed, as well.

       • Considering the fact that I can find no reference anywhere to the Frosts defending the right to their “church” to the Supreme Court (I’ve found references to an IRS audit in ’85, which resulted in a local court of appeals finding that, as a religious organisation, the Church and School of Wicca was tax-exempt, and a later Virginia Eastern District court case regarding a prisoner, who was taking CSoW’s correspondence course, had the right to have an athame), I can’t find anything that the Frosts have done, short of starting their Church and School of Wicca, that has had an objective, measurable impact on the entire pagan community. Zsuzsana Budapest, a despicable transphobe, actually was tangled up in California Supreme Court for nine years, defending the right to read tarot cards and eventually getting California’s anti-fortune telling laws repealed as unconstitutional –she actually did something that has had a measurable effect on the pagan community as a whole. In comparison, the Frosts have been inconsequential to the community, outside their own church.

         • According to the Frost’s response on their blog (cited several times in responses to this thread), they have never sued anyone YET. Which means they haven’t been plantiffs in a legal case. Not really sure how you can bring a case to the US Supreme Court (a case that the SCOTUS archives doesn’t have either) and not actually been involved in a legal case on the issue.

         • “Candy D” alleged that they defended the CSoW at the Supreme Court level:

           http://wildhunt.org/2014/04/the-florida-pagan-gathering-a-community-in-crisis.html#comment-1321807134

           or, at least, that’s what they appear to be saying.

       • Yes, they did do that, and lots of people, including my husband, were introduced to the Craft via the Frosts. I live in N.B., NC, their former headquarters. The Frosts are remembered here, and part of the reason my husband and I, and other Pagans here, are not discriminated against is because of the groundbreaking work they did while they live here. Their remembered presence sure made my getting a license to hold a Pagan Pride Day here in 2001 much, much easier.

         My husband was in the annual Voting Meeting several times. He recruited other Pagans to come to their popular gatherings at the Whaler Inn in Atlantic Beach and also in Baltimore. I have read most of their books.

         So I am certainly not ill-informed. And part of that history is not so pleasant. In fact, it’s downright ugly. Lots and lots of ugly. And part of that ugly is the stupid and ill-informed BS about how it’s best for a minor to stretch out her own hymen and be sexually initiated into the Craft by an older man. And part of that ugly is that Gavin will NEVER recant anything nor apologize for anything because he is one of those human beings who simply cannot be wrong. It’s always somebody else’s fault, someone else who is dumb or suppressed or not a ‘true Witch.’

     • Cherry picking what you want from the historical record. Yup sounds like Wicca.

     • Ruadhan, I can’t believe how much I’m agreeing with you on all that you’re writing about this subject. I’ve disagreed with you many times on other posts (a while ago). Right now, i want to reach through the computer and give you a big hug, You’re doing an awesome job.

       • Hey, thanks for your kind words, but maybe next time leave out the more back-handed bits? I do realise that you mean well, but it just kinda makes me feel like Eliza Doolittle or something (especially cos you don’t seem to be the only person telling me this).

         • “it just kinda makes me feel like Eliza Doolittle” – that made me giggle. Sorry for the back handed compliment – that wasn’t respectful of me.

         • Thanks! 🙂

9. http://adainitiative.org/2013/08/conference-anti-harassment-campaigns-do-work-three-existence-proofs-from-sff-atheismskepticism-and-open-source/

   Alas that it has taken Kenny Klein’s arrest to get the Pagan community moving towards addressing conference-level policy. With respect to the Frosts, every single Witch and Pagan, elder or not, that I ever met…from 1966 through 2000…advised against the Frosts, against their Church & School of Wicca, etc. I have NEVER heard of a West-Coast (USA) based gathering or convention that had the Frosts as speakers, and am somewhat nauseated by the fact that there any who do—more especially when they have never repudiated or added disclaimers to their published statements. It may be “history”…but so is Auschwitz.

10. Wow, i am just STUNNED by the MORAL highground so many have taken against the Frosts. So many perfect upstanding pagans. to run them old Frosts out of Pagan town must make you happy. No proof of Wrong doing by the Frosts, IN 40 years, and now this, And dont give me this bullshit about they wrote it in a book so they did it, if i wrote a book saying i killed a man, does it mean i killed a man. Its all about EGO, and feeling so much better than someone who has been involved in Pagan affairs longer than most posters here. I applaud you for being so pathetic.

    • It’s not a matter of their having written it proves that “they did it”; this not about an accusation of child abuse, but about teachings in a published work. That work is not a work of fiction, but of spiritual instruction. They have had forty years to renounce the sexual initiation of minors as appropriate practice, and they have not done so.

      These are not private people who happen to hold an unpopular view. They are spiritual teachers whose books teach something morally abhorrent. Those are sufficient grounds to deny them a platform to continue their teaching; nobody is talking about locking them up, just refusing to honor their teachings because of their own words and their own work.

      If, forty years ago, a writer made (for example) a racist statement, one that taken at face value would cause people to act in an abusive manner toward those of another race, I would expect them to have disavowed it long ago if they wanted to retain the good opinion of our community. I see the situations as analogous.

    • The law of 3 return applies to hate of the kind that is so prevalent in this attack. So much hate. So little wisdom. An ye harm none, do as ye will. The haters attack anyone who even says their opinion.

      • The ‘law of 3 return’ is not a scientific law, nor is it a legal one, so I’m not sure how it’s relevant. Especially considering not all Pagans give a shit about it too.

      • My religion is every bit as pagan as Wicca and Wiccanate Neopaganisms, and it does not have this “law of three return”. You speak of wisdom, yet are unwise enough to assume that your doctrine applies to all pagans.

      • Tell me more about how facile readings of Wiccan precepts apply to absolutely all Pagans.

        • Facile = easily achieved. While I agree with your sentiment, the Wiccan Rede is not facile -. It’s only seems that way to those who don’t understand it. It’s not a “turn the other cheek” thing. Here’s an example, a so called-demon monger sent his demons to attack me. I, with the help of Hekate, trapped them and him in a bubble of pure light, Their energy diminished and diffused. He lost the battle. He told me later that for the first time in his life, he was not longer angry at the world and started to turn his life around. I’d hardly call that an easy thing to achieve.

          • That’s not what I meant. I meant that interpreting the Wiccan Rede as simply “harm none” is a shallow, facile interpretation of something that has considerably more nuance in reality. “Wicca for the Rest of Us” has a fantastic article on the Rede and its many misunderstandings and misreadings.

          • “I meant that interpreting the Wiccan Rede as simply “harm none” is a shallow, facile interpretation of something that has considerably more nuance in reality” – Agreed!

            I’d love to read what Wicca for the Rest of Us Wrote, I’m having trouble locating a link.

          • Here you go: http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/rede.shtml

      • I am WIccan. You obviously don’t understand the Wiccan Rede. It’s not just one sentence, There’s a whole lot more to it!

        • Not to derail, but it actually is one sentence. “Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill: An it harm none, do as thou wilt” from Doreen Valiente’s Witchcraft for Tomorrow.

          You may have that confused with the “Rede of the Wiccae” by Adriana Porter/Lady Gwen Thompson which is a much longer poem (http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/laws/credo.shtml).

          However, even the 8 words of the Wiccan Rede illustrate a set of concepts that are much more complex and open to interpretation than the “harm none” crap to which it is usually reduced.

          • I love academic discussions 🙂

            Too bad that link didn’t work 🙂 Here’s the link to Doreen Valiente’s full version “The Witches Creed” – http://www.doreenvaliente.org/Doreen-Valiente-Poetry-11.php#sthash.49EvQZCS.dpbs

            The one I think you’re mentioning is here (and is my favorite one, you were right) by Lady Gwen Thompson http://www.orderofthesacredgrove.com/rede.html

            Another popular one is http://wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm

            There are so many more versions of it! It’s like having many recipes for the same cake.

            I understand and respect what you’re saying (and some would say I’m splitting hairs) but, I disagree that the rede is only the last 8 words. All of the others refer to doing your true will – “In perfect love and perfect trust”, they all give more information on how to practice and give moral advice. They may not all say the exact same thing, but they inference is there.

            “However, even the 8 words of the Wiccan Rede illustrate a set of concepts that are much more complex and open to interpretation than the “harm none” crap to which it is usually reduced.” – AGREED!

            You might enjoy the Exegesis On The Wiccan Rede by Judy Harrow, I found it very enlightening – http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos082.htm

          • Sorry, the link should work now 🙂

            I certainly don’t mean to indicate that “The Rede of the Wiccae,” “The Witches’ Creed,” “The Witches Rune,” etc. aren’t valuable; I am only stating that technically they are not the Wiccan Rede.

            To bring this back to the topic in question, the Frosts wrote non-fiction, instruction manual of a highly inappropriate and harmful nature to minors. Perhaps they themselves never performed these “rites” with actual minors nor encouraged any minors with whom they had contact to do them personally, but they should take some of the responsibility for placing that information out into the world as non-fiction, instructional material, all in the name of a Witchcraft Tradition. This material was never retracted by the Frosts so it continues to be a problem.

            The Pagans for Change organization wasn’t trying to send the Frosts to jail or even prevent them from attending the festival, they just did not wish their own wyrd to be stained by supporting them as presenters.

          • “Do as ye will” is the active imperative part of the rede. The rest is just a small caution that Gardner slapped on. Despite all the vitriol and hysterical hate, I have seen nobody allege that the Frosts ever harmed anyone. This hate campaign and libelous mud slinging is doing far more harm to pagans and paganism than their 40 year old book ever did.

          • I would commend your attention to another part of the Rede:

            “With a fool no season spend, or be counted as his friend.”

            This admonition is not specific to Wicca. It is an ancient truth and the sort of thing our mothers passed along before our first day of school. The company you keep reflects on you. This, and not any allegations of personal wrongdoing or criminal harm, is why people object to having Frost as a prominent public figure at the festival and by extension in national publicity.

          • No, actually the Rede is not one sentence. It’s a whole poem. It also contains things about going deocil vs widdershins and not burning elder.

          • Respectfully, you’re confusing the Wiccan Rede (the maxim) with “the Rede of the Wiccae”, a longer poem that mentions what you state above. That poem is often mistakenly titled as “The Wiccan Rede” online and attributed to other people (and there are now lots of variations on it), but this is not the case. Please refer to the link I posted. “The Rede of the Wiccae” is interesting and valuable in its own right, as are other similar poems like Valiente’s “The Witches Creed” that Biolochic mentions above, but they are not the same thing.

            Gardner himself got the inspiration from a 1901 novel called “The Adventures of King Paulsol” as well as Crowley and other occultists before him. He stated in The Meaning of Witchcraft:“[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, ‘Do what you like so long as you harm no one’.”

            “Rede” simply means advice so technically there is a lot of literary advice out there for Wiccans to enjoy and ponder, but the Wiccan Rede, as per Valiente, who was one of the founding mothers of the religion, is eight words.

          • Actually, it looks awfully a lot like Aradia Gospel of the Witches. http://www.ravenfamily.org/ffetch/comments/3fold.php

            You are right, I am conflating the long rede with Valiente.

          • I wouldn’t doubt that Aradia had an influence as well. I know it strongly influenced Valiente’s “Charge of the Goddess.”

    • Hence my Pitchfork statement. People would rather believe the worst. Then to search, read and listen for the truth. Taking rumor and hearsay as Truth.
      Where are these ‘Survivor’s’ ‘Victims’?… It’s become too muddled with the true crime that KK did.
      We know there are Predators in the Pagan Community, instead of going after the ones in your home community, they go after the supposed one’s from afar. So that they can feel they did something.

    • Just because Greys and Colours exist does not mean that Black and White cease to exist. Sometimes there are absolutes that need to be enforced.

      • So are we Pagans or Policemen. and who makes the rules,, someone with a piece of paper degree and a smug attitude saying i make the rules for all Witches and Pagans . Please , if this is the pagan movement you want, then by all means have it..

        • You’re not making yourself at all clear, but from what I can gather, yes, people have the right to say what is and is not acceptable teaching in their community. Yes, people have the right to say “what X said was unacceptable, their attempt at disclaimer / apology is also unacceptable, and we don’t need such people given privilege in the community.” Also, yes, people have the right to say that there are certain acceptable moral absolutes.

          If you believe in a community with no standard for the potential safety of its most vulnerable members and no accountability for those who transgress said, then I really want nothing to do with your community.

        • Yes, it is; and I will take it, thanks.

    • If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it’s a duck.

    • Would you be defending the Frosts if they were suddenly Catholic priests who wrote a book about the “tradition” of religiously sexually initiating children, but had not been convicted of anything?

      “Those nice old priests just wrote about it, they never touched any children! No one complained, so they should be able to stay in the church and be around all the kids they want!”

    • I have never written a “deflowering” ritual or advocated sex between adult males and pubescent females. The Frosts did.

      Had I written such a ritual, I would have apologized for it long ago and asked forgiveness for anybody who was injured by some horndog who used my text as an excuse for molestation. I would then take any other necessary steps to ameliorate the damage caused by my bad judgment. To date the Frosts have not done this.

      So yes, in this instance I am claiming the moral high ground against the Frosts. If that offends you, do feel free to find company more suited to your ethical standards.

11. I am disgusted by the Frosts . . . they are advocating predatory monsters.

    For those who are unaware:

    http://robjo.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/the-frosts-pedophiles-in-our-midst/

    • Just like some Christian groups… it will ATTRACT pedophiles into their circles.

12. As a total outsider, and glad of it, I would be interested in hearing how the Frosts respond to all this. It could be that they are sitting reading this and laughing their heads off at all the fuss they are generating.

    It seems to me that there is an unspoken set of assumptions in all this. First, community is of overriding value and everyone must put their personal desires aside for its benefit. Second, that everyone shares that belief. Third, that being seen as a “good person” is the most important goal of everyone’s life. But let us look at those assumptions.

    The Frosts may not give a damn what the Pagan community thinks of them. On the contrary, they may hold it in contempt. After all, it has done nothing but attack them since the 1970s, why should they feel otherwise? In that case, they have no reason to care what effect their ideas have on that community. They are clearly capable of functioning very well without it.

    They may not care if people see them as bad people. In fact they may enjoy it. There is a tremendous glamour to being the “bad guy.” Believe me, I know. It may be in their interests to be the bete noir of paganism. It is much more fun to speak to a few people in a darkened room by skype than it is to speak to large group that may be largely indifferent. The small group is listening because it really wants to.

    So may I submit to you that by these actions you are not only cutting yourself off from communicating with the Frosts (and by way of personal note, I read The Witches Bible when it was published in 1972 and my reaction was one of horror as well, even though at that time what they said was not beyond the pale, there was a lot of discussion of that sort of thing at that time. It played a serious role in the Piers Anthony novel, Macroscope, published four years before.) and thus they are actually free to pursue their course because we are constrained by our friends, not our enemies, and at the same time creating a dedicated Frostian Underground which is not infuenced by the objections to their ideas and in fact rejects any argument against them. The bars you raise do not only keep them in, they keep you out.

    But do not make the mistake of thinking by these actions you are isolating them. You are only making them sound intersting. “What the Pagans afraid of?”

    • They did respond: http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com

      • And they’re claiming the disclaimer was always a part of that chapter. Anyone got an old edition to prove they’re lying?

        • I have both the 2000 edition of Good Witch’s Bible and the 1975 Berkley Medallion edition of The Witch’s Bible. The disclaimer is in the foreward to Chapter IV of Good Witch’s Bible. The earliest copy that I can locate with that title is via worldcat.org, a 1990 edition, and addall.com, the most comprehensive used and rare book database, has no copies before 1999. So I can’t say definitively when that Foreword was added.

          More to the point is the first sentence of the Foreward: “This chapter describes some of the more controversial practices of the old path taught in the earliest days of the Church and School of Wicca.” I’d also like to know why they throw that “formal” into their disclaimer, and wonder if some people would read that and figure they could still try some sort of informal initiation with the teachings in that chapter.

          • AbeBooks.com seems to have two 1972 editions, but at $90+, I am in no position to settle it, myself. Anyway, they’ve lied about the age restrictions, and digging around on the Internet pulls up enough instances that they lie about just the origins of Wicca and their own practises, that I’m kind of astonished that they’ve been held in the esteem of so many for so long.

          • The “disclaimer” and Foreword are definitely not in my 1975 printing. Their lies and inconsistencies do make determining what they really are saying or believing difficult, if not impossible.

            In the Foreword to Chapter IV they say, “Since very few females coming to initiation are virgin, the use of the phallus is usually dropped,” seemingly unaware that they still believe on p.99 that “Each female initiate, whether virgin or not, uses the phalli.”

            Gavin tells Ellen Evert Hopman in People of the Earth, “We teach sexual promiscuity.” Yvonne corrects him and says, “We don’t teach promiscuity. We don’t teach anything that would be called ‘naughty.'”

          • Then there is the amusingly indignant “There are short-term gains for people running festivals, if they can
            advertise another Witch burning. And of course there are the authors
            and publishers of what we describe as yellow-press books on the level of National Enquirer. So we ask, do you want this to happen?” June 29, 2007 http://gavinandyvonne.blogspot.c…their-
            cost.html compared with:

            “Articles by or about Gavin and Yvonne Frost have appeared in such national publications as Midnight and the National Enquirer.” Biographical material on the back cover of The Magic Power of Witchcraft, Parker Publishing Company, 1976.

          • You know, I feel like I should have something to say in response to this, but all I keep coming up with is:

            o_O??? man what i don’t even….

13. Wow! Witchhunts Among the Witches! Rather attend a lecture by the Frosts Craft founders then Politically Correct Fluffy bunnies. tisk tisk.

    • You don’t actually know what a witch hunt is, do you? These are not baseless accusations people are making in order to drive out or control an entire class within the pagan community. This is people pointing to the exact words of two people, words those two people have not rescinded in any way, and saying “this makes their leadership position unacceptable”. That makes it kind of the opposite of a witch hunt.

      • Ruadhan: take a look at Nightshade09’s profile. You’re arguing with a self-proclaimed “Confederate” who thinks Muslims are “7th century savages” and believes Wicca is only about “sacred heterosexual spirituality.”

        To paraphrase Commissioner Gordon: Kenny Klein and the Frosts may not be getting the defenders they need, but they’re getting the defenders they deserve.

        • Holy hell. Yeah, I think I made that comment on the tablet –following links can be a bit more trouble than it’s worth, sometimes.

    • The term Fluffy Bunnies don’t mean what you seem to think it does. Fluffy Bunnies don’t have years of education and knowledge under their belts. Fluffy Bunnies don’t fight against injustice for over 40 years. Fluffy Bunnies don’t try to protect innocents. You also don’t seem to know what the term Political Correctness means, either.

      • “Fluff” is in the eye of the beholder. This whole to-do led me to remember that one of the Frosts’ books sits in my collection as the very first book I ever picked up on the Craft and neopaganism in general – “The Magic Power of Witchcraft”. Bought it circa 1984 from an ad in a magazine.

        Let’s take a quick excursion through some of the chapters and sub-chapters. “Find the lover you want”, “Girls love pagan winners” and, my all time favorite: “Witchcraft Power can Make you Rick in a Ghetto!”

        • Thank you for the giggle!

        • Re those chapters for eal? I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

          • I was surprised myself. Hadn’t cracked open that book in years! To be fair, it has some reasonable principles of metaphysics and basic energy work within all that text, but Frost’s stalwart defenders would do well to reconsider the “Fluffy Bunny” charge against the rest of the world. They’re playing with trebuchets in a glass house!

    • Indeed. Why wait for the Xians to hold a witch hunt when there is plenty of hate and haters in paganism to hold our own. Its the classic witch hunt mentality based on self righteous zeal to attack and destroy.

14. Thank you Heather, for a fair and thorough story on this difficult issue. I dont think the FL community is “in crisis” as I see these conversations as a healthy step in our maturation…but sometimes growth is uncomfortable, LOL. Thanks to the The Wild Hunt for excellent coverage of whats happening on the ground in the pagan world, as always.

15. I think the emphasis on healing the community is premature. They will have to work through this issue *before* moving ahead to healing the community.

    • The emphasis on healing the community is premature because we should be concentrating first on healing the victims of our inaction and active complicity in this issue.

      • Exactly.

      • Good point!

16. Whenever someone says, “Its for your own good,” or “Its for the children,” they are planning to take away your money or your freedom. Or both. So far in this discussion we have seen version of both assertions posted. No, people, you can’t take my freedom or my money. I am saddened you have already been successful in limiting the freedom of people who wanted to hear from the Frosts at FPG.

    • Citation needed.

    • All they have to is listen to them on their webpage, many podcasts,etc. They make themselves very accessible to those who wish to listen.

    • You’re the guy who was whining about all the “hate” being slung in Kenny Klein’s direction, aren’t you? I think my friend Clare Emmett’s statement on you and your ilk applies here.

      Were I part of those commenters’ communities, I would be keeping a close eye on their conduct hereafter. Misty-eyed defence of an abuser* can be indicative of mere cluelessness. The older I get and the more of this bullshit I see play out, the more reliable this kind of whiny “but he didn’t doooooo anything!” hairsplitting seems to be as an indicator of who the predators are.

      *which if he consumed kiddy pr0n, he sodding well is; and it seems he did rather more than that.

17. I thought that if there was one thing any reasonable person could agree on, in spite of all our other differences, it would be that “sex with minors = bad.” But apparently, taking a stand against child sexual abuse is somehow taboo. In the past few weeks, people have been rallying to silence and shame the victims of an abuser and CONFESSED collector of child pornography. And now we have people claiming that anyone who opposes people who TEACH SEX WITH MINORS AS A SPIRITUAL PRACTICE are bigots and inciting baseless moral panics. And we have an entire organization (the FPG) which was digging in and insisting that they provide a platform for these people to teach their poisonous practice.

    What the actual hell is wrong with people? FUCKING MINORS IS WRONG. Advocating fucking minors is WRONG. Collecting pictures of minors in sexual situations is WRONG.

    I’m about 1000% done with the neopagan community right now. I do not want to be a part of any community where these things are even remotely acceptable. Disgusting.

    • Don’t be done with us. We need people like you to educate others, and to begin the healing process (once the anger of all of this dissipates). I expect that the vast majority of Pagans who know about the Frosts want nothing to do with them.

      • I agree with that. Don’t be done with all pagans due to this debacle. If anything, applaud the pagans who ARE taking a stand about this. Ancient practices (that are proven to have actually existed) that are now viewed as inappropriate for our modern world, imo, could be referenced..and declared “no longer appropriate” and in fact..now illegal in most countries.

        However, describing details in a way that could be used today..as harmful to minors, is unacceptable. Rituals that are MADE UP by those trying to create a religion, rituals that are not only harmful, but illegal, should not be tolerated.

        People get so upset at Christians when pastors prey on minors with brainwashing teachings that GROOM minors and their parents to accept sexual abuse is wrong. Why is it acceptable in another religion? Why publicly castrate a Christian pastor for doing it, but hailing a pagan leader for doing it? Talk about hypocrisy!

    • “I’m about 1000% done with the neopagan community right now. I do not
      want to be a part of any community where these things are even remotely
      acceptable. Disgusting.”

      I’m in the same boat right now. I don’t expect any religious community has only good people, but the number of people screaming “witch hunt” and “you’re against sex” is just beyond disturbing. Fortunately, there are a handful of decent people here who are against child abuse, but there’s far too many who are supporting it here.

      For those who are fighting abuse in the community, thank you. I hope your voices are louder than the sick bastards who think their rights are being trampled on if they can’t abuse children.

      • For a long time, I was a little sad about other Recons and Polytheists who didn’t want to be associated with the Neopagan “big umbrella.” But the more I looked into *why* they felt that way, and especially with some of the ridiculous bullshit that has been slung at Recons and Polytheists recently I was starting to understand this position more and more.

        And now this? Oh fuck no. I’m done. I, too, salute those of you who are speaking out and fighting against this kind of abuse in the Neopagan community. Apparently, you have an up hill battle, but it’s a worthy one!

        I, on the other hand, don’t feel like this is my fight. More and more, I feel like a spectator to Neopaganism. I really feel I would only be comfortable closely associating with smaller Recon or Polytheist groups (many of which, thankfully, have released statements and policies against this kind of thing).

        • It IS your fight, and will be whether you choose to make a stand in this community or not. It WILL follow you in whatever spiritual path you follow, or even into non-religious secular life. It is heartening to hear that some Recon and Polytheist groups have drafted statements and policies. That’s a start, not an end. The RCC has had some excellent policies and statements against abuse for decades not, but none of it matters unless you create and nurture a culture of leadership (and membership) which truly buys into it.

          I cannot tell you whether the pagan community will get where we need to be on this issue. I can tell you the events of late have afforded us an opportunity to do so, and that I feel a true awakening on the issue. I can also tell you we can use the help of people like you who have a sense of right action and outrage around this issue.

        • Then please, read my posts to see just why we all need Pagans with your intelligence and outlooks in order to stop this from going on any longer than it has! I have not been able to attend fests for far too long because of spinal surgeries. Who will say these things to organizers of every such festival if you don’t??
          Please think before you act, at least, although I honor your decision.
          Thanks so kindly
          Pythia Sidhe

18. The Frosts have responded..
    http://www.gavinandyvonne.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-to-kill-wicca.html?m=1

    • And they are outright lying about not accepting minors as students. Their website very clearly says that they accept minors with parental permission, and that without parental permission, a $100 payment to them will make it okay. That’s been there for about 7 years at least.

      http://www.wicca.org/courses/Registration%20and%20Tuition.html

      • Wow… That’s… Kinda sleazy.

        • riiiight..because getting the parents permission to groom minors for sexual abuse is ok. ”
          Payment from Minors The School will accept your registration fee, but it must be accompanied by a signed note of permission from your parent or guardian. Otherwise, we have to ask for a non-refundable down payment of $100.00.”

          This sounds like a pay off. ugh!

          • OTHERWISE? WHAT?

            So you can either get a permission slip OR pay extra? They accept minors as students

            WITHOUT parental permission FOR A FEE? Holy shit.

          • Yeah, I’m more than a little frustrated that this thread didn’t get more attention, because there are a load of ethical issues in that short little paragraph. The gulf between ‘we need a signed note of permission’ ** and but really, that’s okay, pay us more and we’re good is ENORMOUS.

            I really think there’s a much broader discussion that needs to be had, after or perhaps with the one about how our communities deal with sexual abuse and sexual ethics, about boundaries and the enormous amount of suasion that an initiating group has over its students, particularly students who are especially unguarded and vulnerable because of age or past trauma or both, and the effect of that vulnerability and suasion on students’ informed consent. So there are so many things ethically wrong with that paragraph of theirs before one even touches the whole “deflowering” thing.

            **I’m personally not a fan of “we need a signed note of permission from your parent or guardian” to begin with because a) if you’re doing this long-distance, how the hell are you going to know the person signing it is their parent/guardian?, and b) you have no way of knowing if the parent even knew what they were signing (e.g. teen waits for frazzled mom’s attention to be six different ways and says “hey, sign this for the field trip”). There’s a qualitative difference between “we need a signed note of permission” and “we need to meet/talk to your parent and
            make sure they’re on board with this”. The latter is due diligence. The former is legal butt-covering.

          • a) if you’re doing this long-distance, how the hell are you going to know the person signing it is their parent/guardian?, and b) you have no way of knowing if the parent even knew what they were signing (e.g. teen waits for frazzled mom’s attention to be six different ways and says “hey, sign this for the field trip”)

            Require it notarised? I mean, that way one would at least show a substantial good-faith effort to make sure the parent or legal guardian was involved, and if that turned out not to be the case, the blame could be more-clearly shifted away from oneself and onto the minor, notary, and/or person falsely acting as parent/guardian. Not to play Devil’s advocate or anything, cos they do not clearly ask for a notarised signature, but that’s how I see the more-reputable people play this thing out.

    • RD, I tried to tell you in another forum where you posted “Hear ye, hear ye!If you are on the witch hunt or band wagon to persecute Gavin Yvonne Frost… Kindly delete yourself from my facebook!
      I will have no part in a friendship with someone who would do something like this over something written 40 years ago!!
      You have brought back the burning times, and I am ashamed of you…” I tried to explain to you that everyone has done some really dumb things in our past. Very few of those dumb things were in the liturgy of a religion, except for the frosts. I would also like to think that the dumb things we have all done in the past we now use as guide posts in our lives going forward for things to not repeat. In the case of the frosts reply to thi furor that is going on they are feebly attempting to deflect the attention for the heinous passages in their books. It is NEVER OK to tell people to to stick a wooden phallus in their daughter, or to have a sponsor do it for you. I am not a prude on sexual matters. I have no concerns over with sexual initiation of consenting adults. I think that any consenting adult should be able to do whatever the hell they want as many other consenting adults as they want. Other peoples sex lives are no ones business other than those involved. However when the sexual abuse of children comes into the picture as a Community we must stand up and say… NO!!! Especially when it is in the context of a religious practice. There is no place in our modern society for the ritual sexual abuse of children.

      • I read your response on facebook before deleting you. You and others like you are BULLIES! You know nothing about the Frosts or their path. You are disrespectful of the very people that were at the forefront of getting Wicca and Witchcraft as recognized religions. They also had the 1st federally recognized Church of Wicca. And thus is way you thank them for their vigilance? The Frosts are not only My Mentors, they are also my friends! You attacking them also attacks me. You are on a Witch-Hunt and promoting censorship against the Frosts.

        Who is next, Ray? Maybe Dorothy Morrison? After all she did write the book: ‘Utterly Wicked: Curses, Hexes & Other Unsavory Notions’. Oh My god, let’s burn her at the stake for teaching people how to do these horrible things! REALLY? I mean after all, we are to “Harm None”!
        Or how about Raymond Buckland? After all, his Complete Book of Witchcraft teaches you how to Properly Bind (tie-up) a naked person and blindfold them prior to their initiation! An introduction to BDSM, right?
        And yet again, both of these persons are not only my teachers, but also my friends…
        Hell, let’s just round up ALL our TRUE ELDERS, those that are still living, I mean, and burn them at the stake! While we are at it, let’s round up all the little faggots, like me, and tie us/them to the kindling before starting the blaze! Wow! Then all the Fluffy Bunnies, like you, can hail their superiority and claim victory over the Evil-Doers, what a party that would be, huh?

        • You really don’t see a difference between the potentially controversial practices of consenting adults, and the advocacy OF ADULTS SEXUALLY ABUSING “INITIATING” 10-YEARS-OLD CHILDREN… What the hell is wrong with you?

        • Sir…your anger is taking hyperbole to the realm of the Twilight Zone. Many here ARE Elders, love our living Elders as well as those who number among our Beloved Dead. No such actions could ever be remotely possible, because those Elders do not write olinstruction manuals for creating and using different-sized wooden phalli, having a coven member carry out the defloration in ritual space, let alone (for a girl) the instruction to her that she must bring back “the fruits” of her “initiator’s” sperm (seed) that it may be cast into the fire.
          I suppose she is supposed to cover her yoni w

    • Hi, Richard: loved this picture on your Facebook page:

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152044219677068&set=pb.641137067.-2207520000.1396966030.&type=3&theater

      “American White History Month: Being White, American and Proud Doesn’t Make Me a Racist.”

      To reuse Commissioner Gordon’s thoughts, the Frosts aren’t getting the defenders they need but they sure as Hel are getting the defenders they deserve.

      • Richard just responded on Facebook thanking me for the attention. I hope he enjoys the attention as much when Camp La Llandra learns that FPG hosts not just ritual abusers but White Nativists.

    • And note that they’re still lying their arses off….

19. http://tuecaa.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/protecting-pedophiles-and-holding-wicca-accountable-quoted-text-post/

    Wow. I’m looking at that again. That’s just all sorts of messed up.

    We had “Keep your rosaries off my ovaries.” Now we can add “Keep your coven away from my oven.”

    The first time should be in coven? Let’s get in there and stretch or snip, with parental or other adult help (even a health care professional), in order to prepare so every thing will be alright the first time? That’s really not necessary and I’d feel violated to the core with parents or a coven that got so intrusive and overly involved in my sexuality and person like that. Even if I were 18. Or 19. Or 21. They’d have position and power over me and the ability to religiously pressure me, pun intended? Whoa. No. Just no.

    The text in question isn’t a healthy alternative to mainstream religions making sex dirty, filthy, a sin. It’s ripe for abuse and/or misunderstandings on all sides near and far. It displays a stunning lack of understanding of basic psychology and the dynamics of power and abuse and it doesn’t seem to appreciate the role and importance of healthy **personal sexual autonomy**. If I were an adult who wanted to practice any sort of sexual magic, I certainly wouldn’t want my parents or other adults from my childhood present or involved in any manner. Also, sex magic of any sort should be an option carefully done, not an ideal, and not expected. If it becomes expected, there are going to be too many people who feel it’s being **forced** on them, and that’s definitively a no-no.

    Even if the Frosts never advocated or did anything illegal, as the pagan community gets mainstreamed, as it becomes so large, past works like this will get scrutinized and community safety will get looked at again, and again, and again. It’s just going to happen. We’ve seen so many mainstream religions sweep abuses under the rug and we don’t want to be that.

    I know they changed the title but it *was* called The Witches Bible and it *did* have that crap in it. That didn’t kind of beg the hullaballoo over it to eventually happen, it absolutely begged it…good intentions, intellectualizations, and all.

20. Thank you for the thoughtful perpectives expressed here, especially t h e balanced view of the author. As a Craft Elder, I remember when I first bought e frosts’first edition. I trained my Coveners to examine everything with an open mind, then bring to our discussions all opinions on the Trads being discussed. This was the early 70’s; as Witches, all expressed unilateral disgust. The book contains no disclaimer, and there were a number of salient points. Where was the Goddess?; above all, “Gods, surely chapter four is a disgusting fiction!” In my Coven of many university scholars, who had studied initiation rites of the most distant indigenes, we could not believe that such would ever be accepted in the world of Witchcraft, modern or ancient.

    We had done enough examination of Craft in the U.S., and met Raymond Buckland, knew when he had emigrated here, with the Gard Craft, well as some Famtrads. The authors obviously had inflated opinions of themselves. But less than five years later, I was approached by Seekers who brought me their course material, for which they had paid hundreds…Seekers, more and of them, who were apalled by instructions for child abuse!

    We were horrified, and assured them that in our workvwith many Witch Trads, NOT ONE, save the mailorder Frosts, ever used coitus for Initiation of a Witch! The Great Rite is used in many Traditions, but for Elevation to HPS/HP. Never for D edication, or Initiation as a Witch into a Coven.

    Yes, many of us had confronted them directly, with Gavin taking center stage, Yvonne holding back. His supercilious answers and condescending attitude were apalling…his comments focusing on “We make a lot of $$ money selling that book…” as if that was answer. Hundreds or more of us have been silenced by festival organizers in the midwest and east…controversy means more attendees=$, again. I will not go into a 3 hour private conversation which was the result of confronting Yvonne privately, but I will tell you that she wept as I hugged her, after which she thankfully attended a workshop on Goddesses. I was organizing the main Ritual and wasn’t there, but before the main Rite she thanked and hugged me. Their next edition included the age 18 introduction, but they have never renounced that chapter which does say girls may be as young as 10 when the phallus should be constructed.

    No matter extraneous events which may have figured in precipitating this WATERSHED, this Pagan Cultural Epiphany and action…it IS TIME!

    And as an activist Witch and High Priestess, who has never believed in “wiccanate privilege,” as survivor of real witchhunts by violent fanatic Christians (who believe that the frosts describe the Craft), I say that this comes from non-orwellian sources. It comes from Pagans and Witches who say “No More!” to organizations who feature those people, who refuse to publicly withdraw their instructions on non-consensual intercourse to make a Witch.

    How dare they get paid anymore to make the Craft sound perverse??!!

    I and other Elders, we Witches for over 40 years state: the Multifaceted Children of the Goddess withdraw our support for Pagan Festivals who feature the Frosts!

    May the Goddesses and Old Gods whom you worship protect and heal all survivors of sexual abuse, and above all, PROTECT OUR CHILDREN!

    Written at the end of National Victims’ Support Week.

    Blessed Be all, in Hearth and Home, in lives of Devotions, we Pagans, Witches, Druids, Heathens and Kin!

    Lady Pythia of Kent

    • Pythia, I’d just like confirmation of what you seem to be saying: the instructions for sexual initiation of children was not just in the book in question, but in their on-going course material?

      • Greetings, Carol! Yes! 100% Swear on All of my Initiation and Elevation Oaths that not only were these broughtto me, but that at least 60 others or more read them as well. Along with 13-17 Coven Members, I took the coursework to the next Starwood. There I carried them to share with Tradions’ founders, Pagan leaders of many what we now call reconstructionists, High Priest/esses of every Trad I could find, and some of the festival organizers. All were apalled, with the exception of a few organizers, acting, again, as if I were just being a “hysterical” Witch who had no clue about the political necessity of compromise when putting on a festival…don’t rock the boat, etc. Many of them had Pagan children.

        The last folk I let “borrow” them were vendors, F& J B, Witches who were too busy to read them on the spot. Not only did they keep them, but I have been unable to retrieve them, despite decades of trying.

        I should have xeroxed them, but I had too much trust.

        I saw the cost of the next set of instructions too, and was then and now appalled at $ necessary for the next “secret.” I came to the conclusion, as did others, that they were the worst kind of Cult, and I stand by that opinion to this day. I was born a Witch, and I ask:

        MAY THE GODS PROTECT THE CRAFT!

        No one needs to sleep with someone to Love the Lady!

        HEKATE IS ANGRY! As is Great Isis, Cerridwen, Morrigan, Rhiannon, Danu, Demeter, Guan Yin, Pre-Hellenic Athena, Gaea, Holle, and of course Hel. And that’s a short list. I won’t even begin with the Gods, as thi server may combust!

        In Her Service

        Lady Pythia Sidhe

    • I think, by far, this was the most reasonable and balanced of the comments I have seen.
      Thank you.

21. Use of dilator to *avoid* breakage–good idea. In the hands of anyone except the person being dilated–bad idea. As preparation for future insertive activity chosen by oneself–good idea. As preparation for said activity being mandatory as part of initiation into group–the alarm bells start going off. That bit about starving them and then getting them drunk is just icing on the cake.
    I found that book somewhere some 20 or so years back and it squicked me out several ways. I don’t trust these people, and if I saw them coming to a deal I was going to be present at, I would have myself and several others ready to confront them big-time about the need for clearer distinction between a valid practice and one’s own sick fantasies.

22. Yes Kate, my goal has been achieved. Not in the turning of opinion against the Frosts, but in causing folk to remember that their is right, there is wrong, and a person of ethics acts on such matters.

    I have no idea why you think I am rotting in prison. For the past 7 years I have been recovering from a traumatic brain injury while building a most beautiful life in the foot hills of Kentucky. Here, my children are raised working the land and tending critters. It is a most beautiful life. I suspect that like the rumor of my being arrested for molesting my daughter which was created by Gavin Frost, the rumor that I am in prison was started to manipulate the ignorant in retaliation for my spreading facts.

    Now the rumor of my death, that one I started. It took about a year to get back to me and boy did it grow. The original rumor was a bar fight gone wrong. By the time it got back to me, it was a war between rival motorcycle clubs. Kind of odd as I think I am of very good report with the clubs of my area as a result of doing custom metal work for a few members.

    The reality of my statements about the Frosts are that I never accused them of pedophilia. Instead, I pointed to the pedophilia content of their book, their statement that the book was based on their initial teachings, and their claim that they practice what they preach. All things which are factual.

    I certainly understand why a person would not want to believe that folk who claim to be the founders of Wicca would have written or practiced such a thing. But reality is not always what we wish.

    While I remain in no condition to return to a public life due to continued challenges from a traumatic brain injury, I have begun a semi public life online at http://ajdrew.com. I invite further discussion there, but please keep in mind the site is not completely function yet.

    I wish you well.

    A.J. Drew

    • Wonderful to hear from you!! Thank you for fighting for our children and our community. We owe you a debt of gratitude more than we probably know. Blessed Be, my friend.

23. How DARE people be upset with the FPG Board of Directors? Don’t they realize these are volunteer positions. People working tirelessly, day and night, to bring everyone the best possible festivals? You OWE them your loyalty and your money. Even if you don’t like their decisions, you need to attend, to support your community.
    If the BoD wants to bring in “controversial” figures to have a “dialogue” about involving children in the Great Rite, isn’t that what openness is all about? There are people who WANT to sit down with people like the Frosts and have open and honest conversations about how to initiate children into their sexuality in a coven atmosphere! What is wrong with that?

    The BoD stated their mission in regards to this very clearly: “Hot button issues tend to attract spectators and it has always been one of our greatest duties to protect the anonymity of our guests and staff especially those who are still in the broom closet.”
    Which is why they set up a public facebook group, and a public events page where anyone can see all of the people attending! Because no filters exist for social media and there are no such things as “closed groups”! People who suggest otherwise are lying.
    The desire to protect everyone involved was why the BoD set up the facebook event, they listed it as taking place *at the children’s camp* instead of the formal name of the venue. Not just listed – they tagged it as a clickable link, so that it would come up as a result for anyone searching for the camp and anyone who wanted to see camp events would be able to find it!
    The BoD has everyone’s best interests in mind, and does not, and will not, call people out on personal matters when they disagree with them. It’s not *at all* a group that believes that they are the sole leaders of the community, to the point that the only way to get on the board is to wait for someone to leave, and then they will appoint one of their friends to take over the spot! That just does not happen.
    If anyone happens at a FPG event, you should go to the BoD first. Because they have the authority to deal with the problems. No sense of reporting sexual predators to legal authorities. Everyone knows that once those gates are closed, the outside world ceases to exist and law enforcement has no ability to deal with situations that might arise. The best people to deal with illegal activity are a group of volunteers!
    If you disagree with any of this, you are not a real pagan and need to leave immediately. Not just the group, – cast aside your spiritual path and convert to something else. Because no one wants to hear what you have to say!

    • I… I think this is irony. Is this irony? Are you writing ironically? (Please say yes…)

      • The last line is /sarcasm. The pity is that reading other replies here, it’s close enough to actual arguments people are making that it has to be clarified.

    • How DARE people be upset with the FPG Board of Directors? Don’t they
      realize these are volunteer positions. People working tirelessly, day
      and night, to bring everyone the best possible festivals?

      No-where in any definition of “volunteer” does it state “above criticism”.

      • Note the sarcastic tone of the post. 😉
        But that’s basically what has been said by the apologists. That they volunteer their time and energy, so anyone questioning them is ungrateful and should be ashamed of themselves.
        It’s kind of weird that the only resignations we’ve seen (so far) was someone *opposing* the Frosts showing up. Not a single one – or even a call for them to step down – in the aftermath.

        • I was more making an observation than really commenting at you, yourself. 🙂 No worries!

    • Hilarious!

    • I am so glad you included the /sarcasm tag. Normally I would have assumed it, but after this conversation, it was sadly necessary, as otherwise this was in danger of being a Poe.

24. I wonder if anyone else realizes that the author of this article, Jason Pitzl-Waters and many of the people associated with the movement in Florida are all members of COG. It seems more than a coincidence that many people think this article is a bit biased, especially since its been stated that the person from the event who “broke” this story knew about the Frosts attendance a few months ago. To means this seems a bit too planned for my liking and this article just drives that home for me. Also, it was my understanding thst Wild Hunt has a comments policy about not allowing name calling yet they haven’t done anything about that. Needless to say Wild Hunt has lost another reader.

    • A few facts:

      1. The author of this article is Heather Greene.
      2. Both Heather and myself are indeed members of COG. However, if you knew how COG operated, you would know that a member of the Northern California local council (me) and a member of the Atlanta-area local council (Heather) have very little interaction with members of the Florida local council. All of which are independent.
      3. Neither I, nor Heather, knew about this story “months” ago. We found out when concerned FPG attendees came forward.
      4. If you feel there are comments that go beyond the pale, there is a “report comment” button, I encourage you to use it.

      • I’m just pointing out a some coincidental information. I also did not say Jason wrote the article. I wrote the author (comma) Jason (and)…meaning all 3. I also didnt say that Wild Hunt knew about this situation months ago, i said someone from the event.

        Also, I find it funny how one if the people who spearheaded this is the National First Officer of COG. So either shes biased or its just a great coincidence again.

        • The National First Officer of CoG did not spearhead the movement and, yes, she is in fact biased in this case. Florida is her home state.

          None of her actions in this situation were done in an official capacity as First Officer. The National Board was not involved.

          You are correct to say that there were CoG members in the group but there were even more non-CoG members. In fact, Ray, the one who “broke” the story is one of those non-members.

          • Thank you for confirming.

          • You are very welcome.

          • Ray is the husband of the National First Officer of COG. I completely discount any comment to the effect that he has no influence on her nor her on you as her subordinate in the COG organization. This article has zero journalistic credibility. It is nothing more than a fluff piece to bolster the view of the FPG detractors and further fuel the flames of discord.

          • Seriously, what the hell difference does it make who broke the story and what agenda they may have had? Booking the Frosts in these times and handling community opposition they way the board did was the wrong thing to do. It was the wrong thing to do whether the people opposed to it had pure motives or not. As to the journalistic credibility of this article, I have full confidence in Jason and his team. I was in the business for 15 years. Those who truly believe there’s no legitimate story here will go on to make the decisions that will yield many more such stories, or enable them.

          • Candy,

            I can see that you are upset about this. I can also see that nothing I say will convince you that there wasn’t some sort of COG-driven conspiracy to bring this issue forward. I can only say that I feel you are overestimating the influence of COG, which is mainly just an organization that does interfaith and ministerial credentialing.

            For the record, neither Heather, or I, have, or had, any issue with FPG. I was once a featured guest at FPG some years ago. I like many of the people there, and it is unfortunate that this issue is causing so many distress. That said, I’m here in this community as a Pagan journalist, and I believe that writing stories like this makes us stronger, not weaker. I stand 100% behind the piece Heather has written. I think it is fair, and I think it gives time to both sides.

            I want to add, that discomfort with the Frosts at FPG isn’t a new issue, as T. Thorn Coyle’s recently re-printed articles about her time there point out. This was something that was going to make people speak out at some point, and now seems to be that time. From what I can tell, the core of Pagans For Change are people who have attended FPG many times, and I hope that fact isn’t lost on those debating this issue now.

            Tomorrow, I will be linking to the Frosts reply. Because that’s what we do, report on stories that are important for our community to read.

          • That figures. If there is a witch war you can bet that COG is up to its neck in the middle of it. Decades of history. No surprise here.

        • Your over the top, CoG’s NFO is a long standing member of the Florida Pagan community who has her own views on matters of local importance to the Florida community. Frankly, having an opinion on a subject does not make someone biased, it makes them human. Please stop feeding the idea that there is “something strange” going on. These conversations are hard enough without someone attempting to stir in unrelated and speculative statements into the mix. All members of CoG have the right to their own opinions. When CoG has an organizational opinion we/they will issue it publicly as GoG.

        • Before you go looking for CoGspiracy, you should know there are also Freemasons, Lawyers, Nurses, Educators, Parents, and BNP’s who are not affiliated with CoG. There is no conspiracy, just a bunch of folks who are no longer willing to tolerate the recommendation of sexual abuse of children. No straw-man here… move along now.

          • I don’t think I thanked you yet for “breaking” the story. I thank you for your bravery and your continued fighting for what you believe. You rock!

          • Thank you. I have no words for how many people have offered support.

      • So much for the “journalistic integrity” of Wild Hunt. The president of COG is the wife of the person who started all this. Whether or not you have little interaction with members of a different local council are not in question, I find it pretty hard to believe that either of you are not in REGULAR contact with the LEADER of your organization! As I stated many comments back, this article is far from equal and balanced. This just proves it.

        Wild Hunt = Faux News = MSNBC
        Fair and balanced is defined by what we define it to be!

        Then again, this is only a blog. Hardly representative of any real journalistic credibility.

        • Wow. The person who publicized the problem “started” it, not the people who actually are the problem.

        • Excuse me, Candy. This has nothing to do with CoG. Please see my comments after Cat’s, above. Members of CoG are just individual Witches and/or Witches. They have NO POWER, at least not as you are imagining. People do things in their own areas, acting on their own. Think of Congregationalist Churches…there is NO top-down power.
          Please tho’ read my comments above. I hope they provide more clarity. I am differently-abled and unable to retype it here, or I would.
          Thanks kindly, and Blessings
          PythiaSidhe

    • First, Jason did not write this, second as a member of CoG for years it is my experience that CoG does not have the ability to engage in such an action. As a consensus based organization there would be years of debate as to CoG’s position. Third, the current board of CoG has made it very clear that we are uninvolved in both the Florida situation and the Kenny situation as he was never a member. The very idea of a CoG conspiracy is outlandish and beyond any possible reality. Get a grip!

    • The person who “broke” the story, assuming you me Ray, did not know about the presence of the Frosts until March 31 as he stated. Some members of the FPG Board knew but not Ray.

      I believe your concerns about a CoG conspiracy were addressed by the two other comments below.

    • “To means this seems a bit too planned for my liking and this article just drives that home for me. Also, it was my understanding thst Wild Hunt has a comments policy about not allowing name calling yet they haven’t done anything about that.”

      Your organization is asked tough questions like “why are you allowing speakers who have in the past advocated ritual sex between adult men and pubescent women, and who have never recanted that advocacy.” Your response is to imply that the questioners are part of another group and this is just another Witch War, move along folks, nothing to see here. Complete with a tone argument about “name calling” to derail the conversation.

      Wild Hunt may have a lost a reader. Just how many attendees do you think Florida Pagan Gathering has lost permanently thanks to the way your Board of Directors screwed the pooch?

      • As “Saddened” posted as a guest, without a link, I’m not sure how you can be confident he/she speaks for the organization. Unless you have a source of information that’s not obvious to me, I can’t help but think it would be better to hold the Board accountable for it’s official statements, and not to assume they’re in accord with this one. (Though, as a former COG member, I do find the concept of COG managing to cooperate on any single issue long enough to form a conspiracy to be pretty amusing.)

        • Good point, although I think “Saddened”‘s attitude is reflected in lines like these from the board’s second statement:

          It was brought to our attention this afternoon that certain fringe members of the movement to prevent the Frosts from attending FPG left disparaging and callous remarks on the camps social media pages. This in turn caused panic for the parents of the children who attend the camp during the summer months to believe that their beloved campsite was home to a group of Pagans who supported pedophilia. It wasn’t just FPG or its board who was painted with that brush, it was all of us.

          The FPG BoD knew about the writings in question. The BoD knew the Frosts had never recanted them or expressed regret for them. The BoD invited the Frosts as paid presenters. Given that, is it inaccurate to describe FPG as “a group of Pagans who supported pedophilia?” Certainly it’s no more hyperbolic than some of the “WITCH HUNT!!!!” and “BOOK BURNING!!!!” shrieks I’ve seen from the Frosts’ supporters.

          Yet instead of acknowledging that, the BoD blames the messenger.

          Our hearts goes out to the children and the families who were inadvertently affected by our community’s issue. They did not deserve that, nor did the owners and governing body of the camp which graciously allows us to call their land our home. For that we are truly, truly sorry.

          Not, “We’re sorry we booked the Frosts, dug our heels in when the inevitable controversy arose, and then tried to keep the argument under wraps so that Camp La Llandra wouldn’t realize the Frosts’ history. In the future we will address our issues in a more open manner and try to avoid this kind of dysfunction.”

          Originally, we had a resolution where instead of hosting workshops there was going to be an open discussion with the Frosts where the stance they have held for 40 years regarding the contents of their book would be addressed. Its purpose was to allow the community to address them in person, face to face and promote communication with between all parties concerned.

          Unfortunately with the attack on the camp, and its owners, we cannot, in good conscience, allow the Frosts to come, even as private guests.

          Was that resolution made public before the postings to the camp’s social feeds? And even if it was, did it ever occur to the BoD that allowing the Frosts to come to FPG as “private guests” — i.e. people important enough to get free room and board because of their Big Name Pagan status — legitimized them and lent truth to the accusations re supporting pedophilia?

          So who really benefited from all of this? Now we find ourselves standing amongst the wreckage and staring at the crying child who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time whose parents, because of this, will now not allow them to attend their favorite summer camp.

          Ah, yes, the poor crying children who can’t go to summer camp. Because we insisted on having guests who advocate penetrating children with dildos. And because somebody told our shared campsite about it.

          This kind of non-pologizing and messenger-blaming does little to inspire confidence in the Florida Pagan Gathering’s commitment to the safety of its guests.

        • This is the first smile I’ve had catalyzed, and it’s some healing from the very heavy things I’ve written here, even if momentary! Alison Harlow used to say that getting Witches to even finalize a statement, let alone an action is about as easy as HERDING CATS!!!
          Witches, Wiccans, Pagans, Neo-Pagans, Hellenics, Heathens, Druids and probably Chaos Magicians have written these posts, And that doesn’t even cover Kemetics, you name it. If some few are members of ADF, does that mean all the national Groves are conspiring something?
          I use ADF, even CUUPS (heck, why not Witchvox?) as the closest parallels for such a possibility of CoG conspiring anything! Go to Merrymeet and see how long their Grand Council spends on modifying even a preposition in one Bylaws sentence. Make sure you have enough caffeine with you to last 46 hours until the budget is even finalized in this non-profit group of every kind of autonomous Witch, Wiccan, Tradition, let alone Solitaries spread across the nation.
          Now, use the framework of “trying to herd cats” when you offer your conspiracy theories!! It’s your right, but I can’t see it happening even using quantum physics’ String Theory!

          Blessings of the Goddesses or Gods whom you worship
          PythiaSidhe

      • I guess we’ll see in a few weeks, won’t we?

    • This is another classic spin tool used by the Catholic bishops for years. Since some whistleblowers have an agenda, whatever rot they expose, even if true, must be discounted.

25. This is a very painful topic. Thankfully there are easy answers. Boycott any event or group that supports in any way the Frosts. The Pagans of Florida are capable and intelligent people. They have the resources to create a new organization and a new festival with a clear charter prohibiting sexually abusive behavior and content. I wish them well.

26. Kudos to the unknown individual who went to Retreats by the Lake and shone a light on the rot. Those of you who criticize hir actions should consider this: sie acted out of concern for your community’s youth. The Florida Pagan Gathering only acted when it was forced to do so by economic necessity. And if you don’t see why that is morally and ethically repugnant then Retreats by the Lake should boot your collective asses to the curb before they wind up faced with an even bigger scandal.

    • For all the talk of the unknown individual, the BoD themselves put the name of the camp on their public facebook page. They linked it on the event page, so if someone was searching for the children’s camp, they would have come across a link for the event as well.
      One “I wonder what this is” curious click from someone intrested in the camp would have revealed the event, the controversy surrounding the Frost’s appearance, and the names of every single person involved in the discussions.

      • Ive seen one of the postings mentioned in the article. Someone posted “FL psgans welcome pedophiles to Lake Wales” then used the @campname so it would post to the camps twitter feed.

        • I don’t think anyone would have known there was a kid’s camp if the BoD didn’t list that as the event location. (they’ve corrected it to Retreat. But a little too late)

          • The reason the camps name was used is because thats the nane on the sign by the road. Pretty standard practice for most gatherings

          • Good to know. It seemed “WTF”. That makes more sense.

    • Bear in mind, too, that on their blog they say (of the Florida Pagan Gathering): “Although we are not listed, we will be there: we promise.”

      • I just looked. That statement was made on March 1st. Before everything hit the fan.

27. One wonders if the Frosts will still be attending the other festivals on their schedule for this summer; MI Paganfest, Sankofa (at Brushwood), and Sirius Rising.

    • I hope they do. they are free American citizens. and im sure there are many who would actually like to meet them, notwithstanding the lynching they are recieving from the Wild Hunt and the Florida Pagan community

      • Please don’t use the word lynching. It’s incredibly disrespectful to people who have actually been lynched.

        • Stop doing it and i will stop saying it, if the shoe fits wear it, this whole thread and article amounts to a virtual lynching, if it offends you, tough

          • So being disinvited from a Pagan festival is the same as being hung from the nearest tree while crowds cheer and take photos. I would have thought the latter considerably more traumatic.

            In any case, my best wishes to Gavin & Yvonne and hope those C-1 fractures heal soon.

        • Aline: Like all the hate rhetoric about “child abuse” and so forth being hurled about is respectful? LOLOL. This whole witch war campaign is disrespectful from the beginning. Slander, liable, wild accusations of criminal activity against the authors of an old book, against the volunteer organizers of the gathering, and against anyone who asks for peace in our community. The hate gang complaining about “disrespectful” is silly.

      • If you want to host him, his schedule just freed up a little bit. You can have him present at your coven or company picnic or wherever and you can have him and his views reflect on you. Have at it.

      • Pagans are abducting people from their homes, dragging them along the ground, hanging them from trees, murdering them, cutting off parts of them to keep as souvenirs, making a picnic day out of it, and taking pictures of our children with their corpses? Wow, that’s knew.

        It’s racist as fuck to use that word in a way that belittles and erases the awful tradition of actually lynching as racial violence and murder. You are actively erasing the real history of this, as well as defending people who advocate child molestation.

        • And what YOU and others in the Pagan Community are doing the same thing, you know NOT A FUCKING THING about who advocates WHAT in the Pagan community. And you sure as fuck do NOT know me.

          • Hopeless.

          • And you sure as fuck do NOT know me.

            We know you get very uncomfortable when people are accused of child molestation or sexual exploitation and rush to their defense with cries of “lynching” and “facism!” We know that when people call you on this on the keyboard you respond with profanities and outbursts of anger.

            While I may not know you personally, I know I wouldn’t let you within 500 yards of my daughter. What’s more, I’m betting that if I dug in your background a bit I’d find more than a few “liars” slinging “false accusations” at you. I might even find one or two who had managed to deceive the police and actually get some arrest reports and restraining orders filed. Because you’re judged by the company you keep. And right now it looks like you’re a graduate of the Frost School of Wicca, the FSG Enablers College and the Kenny Klein School of Misogyny and Anger Management.

          • You’re making some pretty big leaps of logic, you know.

          • You’re making some pretty big leaps of logic, you know.

            I’d call it “working with the available facts.” Mr. Workman asserted that we “sure as **** do NOT know [him]. He’s correct in that I’ve never met him personally: all I have to go on is his online presence.

            A quick Google search (and a look at his other postings) reveal that he’s a St. Louis-area Druid and the host of a Blog Talk Radio show called “Pagan Perspectives.” I see no evidence that he ever trained with the Frosts, so I retract my statement that he was a graduate of the Frost School of Wicca with apologies to Mr. Workman, and have made the appropriate corrections.

            Based on his responses here, I’d say my comments about anger management and enabling certainly apply, so I’m going to stand by those. That is ample reason for me to consider him unsafe around Annamaria. So I’m also going to stand by my “wouldn’t let you within 500 yards of my daughter” statement.

            If he were offering the kind of SNAGgy non-pologies the TEG BoD is proffering, I’d be inclined to call him a clueless enabler who fails to grasp the difference between “tolerance of diversity” and “tolerance of abuse.” But Tim appears to take this issue a bit more… personally. Especially since he lives nowhere near Florida. That makes me wonder why he takes it so personally.

            Since I said “I’m betting that if I dug,” it behooves me to say that my statements re: restraining orders etc. are speculations rather than accusations. It also behooves me to do the digging required to confirm or refute them, and to offer any apologies or further warnings required.

          • “…it behooves me to say that my statements re: restraining orders etc. are
            speculations rather than accusations. It also behooves me to do the
            digging required to confirm or refute them, and to offer any apologies
            or further warnings required.”

            Yes, thanks for that. I agree. (And hope that the apology will be the outcome, rather than a warning… but I’m glad that you agree that speculation without support isn’t what you want to offer.)

          • Tim (using his craft name “Rev. Sylvanus Treewalker”) has commented favorably on the Frosts’ blog and had them as guests on “Pagan Perspectives.” That could explain why he has a vested interest in this subject. It would also serve as proof that he has no issues with the Frosts’ ritual, and that he thinks the real problem here is intolerance rather than supporting people who advocate sex with minors. So I’m going to leave the “Frost School of Wicca” comment struck, even though it was said jokingly. At the same time, I’m bolding “FPG Enablers College” since we’ve got further evidence supporting that one.

            Tim is the founder of Order of the Standing Oak, whose website can be found at http://www.freewebs.com/pagandrummer/ . (Warning: contains a background sound clip and some Satanic HTML and Grammar Abuse). Among their founding statements are:

            8.We Believe That Morality Is A Matter Of Personal Conviction Based Upon Self Respect And Respect For Others.

            9.We Believe that ‘ Evil’ is a matter of Intent and not of Inheritance, therefore actions are not in themselves evil.Rather it is through the intent behind actions that Evil manifests.

            10.We Believe In The Relative Nature Of All Things, nothing is absolute, and all things, even the Gods, have there Dark sides.

            While I appreciate the sentiment behind this, I think it gets uncomfortably close to being Absolutist in its Relativism. And when combined with Tim’s statements in this thread and these comments from the Order of Standing Oak’s Ethical Concerns,

            We will not sanction bigotry, slander, or perjury or other forms of harassment leveled against our members or other members of the Neo Pagan community

            Initiates are expected to abide by there initiatory oaths and respect the confidentiality of any oathbound material from either our tradition or another

            it seems pretty clear to me that the Order of Standing Oak’s response to abuse within its ranks would be first to assure the victim that rape is relative, that HP Gropesalot didn’t mean to make her uncomfortable and hence it can’t be called harassment, etc. Their second response would be to urge the victim to keep this within the community rather than airing their grievances. Should victims go public, their next response would be to accuse the victim of slander, bigotry, and harassment against the abuser, the Order of Standing Oak, and the general Neo Pagan Community. This, in my opinion, is enough to say that Order of the Standing Oak is not a safe space for vulnerable people and that its leaders cannot be trusted to police their own members or their greater community.

            Others may draw different conclusions from the material I’ve presented and I’d be happy to hear their reasoning.

          • Again, large inferences. I notice that the higher the emotions are getting cranked on this thread, the lower the standard of proof seems to go (on ALL sides, as witness the CoG conspiracy theorizing elsewhere).

            Further, as someone who has worked to confront and eliminate child sexual abuse since the mid-eighties, I can say that I am personally worried that this kind of broad-brush, guilt-by-inference talk will tend to actually delay taking action around specific, concrete offenses. For example, I think that’s exactly what A.J Drew’s highly polarizing earlier protests accomplished; I suspect the Frosts would have lost their platform much sooner if it weren’t for the flame wars at that time, that persuaded a lot of people we weren’t ready to take the problem on.

            I really hope we don’t repeat that error. Sticking to facts gives us enough to act on. Giving in to the temptation to spread rumors may, ironically, block that action, not encourage it.

            I think we’re in agreement on the Frosts, Kenaz. But I have real
            reservations about making attacks on persons rather than arguing from
            clearer evidence than this in a public forum.

          • Again, large inferences. I notice that the higher the emotions are getting cranked on this thread, the lower the standard of proof seems to go

            They are large inferences, yes. But are they unreasonable inferences? In the case of the CoG conspiracy theories, they served to distract from the real problem. What I’m doing here is pointing at its source. Do we want to keep playing whack-a-mole with serial predators or do we want to start shining a light on the culture and attitudes which enable them?

            It’s become abundantly clear that we can’t trust our community to police itself. All we can do is shine a light on the people and attitudes which allow this kind of nonsense to continue. And Tim’s postings here and elsewhere, again in my opinion, are abundant proof that he and his organization are part of that underlying problem.

          • Thank you so much for posting my information here on this forum, but AGAIN you assume Wrongly about my position. And Yes i have been involved with this since the Beginning as a i have stated before. And just a heads up because i defend someones right to exist and work in our community, does not mean i agree with passages written in a book, but it seems you didnt look at that angle..

          • Thank you so much for posting my information here on this forum, but AGAIN you assume Wrongly about my position.

            If you don’t want to share your information with the world, you may want to avoid linking to your Facebook profile and listing yourself on LinkedIn.

            In any event: I didn’t say that you agreed with the Frosts. I said you didn’t find a passage advocating sex with minors to be any big deal. That you felt that the people who were offended were more of a problem than the “deflowering ritual” which the Frosts wrote 40 years ago. And that you believed disinviting the Frosts from a pagan gathering was tantamount to “lynching.”

            I went on to examine your Order’s webpage, and noted your tendency toward an Absolutist Relativism which would give most postmodernists pause, combined with an emphasis on avoiding “bigotry, slander and perjury” and on “intent” as the sole definition of what is or is not evil. I stated, and state again, that this troubles me in conjunction with your performance here.

            Where exactly did I misstate your position?

          • My performance is not of ANY account to you, you Slander, you twist and manipulate, all in an effort to be an agitator and stir up strife. I support the Frosts as free citizens of this country, free to live and work as they see fit, And until ANY illegality is found with them i will continue to support them. I end this line of conversation . Good Day

          • If I can’t convince you that it’s wrong to advocate child molestation, perhaps I can convince the past and upcoming guests of Pagan Perspectives.

            You have a good day too.

          • Again for the RECORD in no post here or on my Blog or any place have i ADVOCATED Child molestation, and if you keep this up i will do the appropriate research as you have done about me and you will face legal action for Slander, So continue if you think you must but be ready for the consequences of your posts

          • Oh NOEZ!!! The Comic Book Guy is going to send the Internet Police after me, and the consequences will never be the same.

            Our of deference to Patheos, I shall take this discussion elsewhere. Keep an eye on my blog for further details. In the meantime, I must thank you for your huffy and spurious legal threat. It’s been years since I’ve faced a Pagan cartooney.

          • Push it into the real world and believe me your legal nightmare will be compounded. and Bravo for denegrating someone for having a hobby, i bet you feel so special. Mr epic Voodoo shaman

          • And just a heads up because i defend someones[sic] right to exist and work in our community,…

            You, and many others, seem to forget how free speech actually works. Sure, the Frosts have a right to exist and work in this or any community, but the community itself has a right to say “we don’t want you to, buh-bye”.

          • Swearing once or twice, in an emotional topic does not mean he needs anger management classes.

            Because he disagrees with you, does not mean he doesn’t have legitimate reasons, and that he is somehow a bad person. SMH

            If you are going to do digging you might also go and dig on how easy or hard it is to get restraining orders in the various states(it differs by state), and whether the Judge found them feasible after the time frame they were initially filed.(I know someone who filed one in ks, easy for the 24 hours, harder to keep without more legal framework, after the second hearing)

          • Tim, the all caps and profanity are only fanning the flames here. Likewise, your real concern, that Pagans go beyond rumor and allow fair process with one another, is getting lost in the rhetoric around racial murder.

            You and I don’t see things from the same light, but we at least do hear and respect each other. I can tell what you are saying, here, but I’m afraid your message is getting lost in your heat. Can you dial it back?

          • No i can NOT dial it back, MadGastronomer Calls me an advocate of child molestation and im supposed to be happy about it, i refuse to accept that kind of an attack, which you have not responded to Mads accusation, kinda one sided there Cat, Sheesh

          • “And you sure as fuck do NOT know me.”……..

            I’m kinda good with that.

        • This point was made with less inflammatory language earlier.

    • MI has cancelled their appearance/The Frosts have cancelled going there after a similar community discussion. No idea about the other festivals.

      • Good on Michigan.

    • I just looked up Sankofa and Sirius Rising – they aren’t listed as guest and KK is, so I don’t know if that site has been updated.
      From the Frost’s page, they want people to know ” Remember: At Sirius Rising there will be a meeting (a convocation) of existing Wiccan churches and of other Wiccan churches that would like to become part of a larger Wiccan church community: not to march in robot mode, but to lock our shields and thus strengthen the voice of Wicca in a larger world.”
      I wonder who is going to “lock shields” with them.

28. I would like to take a moment to say that I am very grateful to The Wild Hunt for taking on the subject of sexual ethics within the Pagan community. I am surprised by the amount of reluctance from within our own community to vetting out these issues. Either way, I am happy to see this well overdue conversation occurring.

29. Luckily for the Pagan community, each one of us can say I am Goddess/God and we are all our own Popes. We are our own programmers and can examine, reclassify, change, delete or add at will in the spirit of healthy sexual and other boundaries.

    This is a very good feature of Paganism and this crisis is a fine example of when to employ it. Topsy-turvy — each generation and individual may examine the supposed sacred and proclaim it to be really just sick crap. Conversely, we may examine what we were taught to be the fabric of society and find it to be sick (e.g. inequality, bigotry, boundary issues, logic errors, heterosexism…).

    We can differentiate between moral panics that don’t stand up to academic scrutiny (e.g. the Satanic Panic of the 1970s to 1990s) and those that do. The Frosts helped legalize Wicca but some of their work is problematic. Both are true. But we can, without eclipsing the primacy of legalization and ethics, navigate controversies to declare what promotes healthy boundaries and practices and what doesn’t, we can make these differentiations without killing an entire branch of religion, and it’s a pretty good educated guess that the upset over the Frosts’ materials and text will ultimately be justified and expounded upon through academic scrutiny.

    • As a traditional polytheist who actually believes in the gods and goddesses as literal deities, I certainly am not my own god. Please stop assuming that your paganism is everyone else’s.

      • You can drop the literalist interpretation of what I said and bother to get the gist of my comment, the important parts. Thanks.

        • I cannot, in good conscience, sit on my hands and nod in agreement while mine and other pagan religions are implicitly erased because someone wants to broad-brush paganism with their own beliefs.

          • My comment, which can be interpreted several different ways, is not a rejection of traditionalist paths that have their hierarchy, Gods, and teachings. You don’t need to miss the forest for the trees with any literalist interpretation of my comment. It’s not about broad brush crap. My comment points to this — no matter what elders or authorities we have, no matter whether we’re in a tradition or eclectic, Pagans generally still retain the authority to have the fierce examinations and resulting decisions about inclusion and exclusion. We are free to have open dialog that’s necessary in the interest of community safety and **prevention** of child abuse. We are free to say that community safety is not just about damage control, it’s also about prevention. We are free to say that some of the Frosts’ work was and will remain ripe for misunderstandings on all sides near and far. We don’t have to wait several hundred years before examining things and stating that something was a mistake (a reference to the Catholic Church and it’s habit of apologizing much too late).

            Some tradition, hierarchy, and structure is fine as long as things don’t get so authoritarian (e.g. infallible Pope syndrome) that child abuse gets sweep under the rug, as it did by the Catholic church.

          • So… No acknowledgement that you could have worded yourself better and in a manner to be inclusive of more than your own brand of paganism?

          • Both literal and nonliteral translations of what I said are not only allowed but are often expected, I would hope, in a community for whom “Pagan” is an umbrella term encompassing often disparate religions and paths. It’s not an aberration that I word things in ways that can be translated differently for the different sectors of Paganism. Interpreting comments is like mine is kind of like take the blue pill or red pill kind of deal (don’t take that literally and yes, I’m taking some artistic license in how I’m using that phrase).

            If you take the nonliteral translation, you should be able to get the gist of my comment and its direction without any hindrance.

            If you want to get stuck on more literal translations as if more literal translations are the rule, I would think that’s more a perceptual problem than a problem with wording.

            I do believe I made both the gist and direction of my comments rather clear both initially and in my clarifying comments and would like to stay on track with those.

            If you want to be concerned about wording and what you say, you might want to consider your previous “gods-damned LOLbertarians” comment, your following comment (“Most Libertarians are just stoned tax-dodging professional whiners who get pant-bones looking at Guns N’ Ammo”) and the direction that comment is teetering toward (“veering into gratuitous political screeds”). And no, I don’t want to get into as a long drawn out discussion either. It’s not crucial to this thread.

          • So… Still no acknowledgement that you could have worded yourself better and in a manner to be inclusive of more than your own brand of paganism?

30. I think the thing that bothers me most is that no survivor/victim has come forward. ‘If’ this ritual was in ‘use’ in 40 years, there’d be at least one coming forward.

    I by no means condone abuse in any form.

    In one respect, as I’ve not read ‘the’ book, so far it’s just a badly written book from the 70’s.
    So in my head, it’s like fiction writing of murders and rape/abuse. It didn’t happen, but thought up.

    Though, if this was done. If the statute of limitations was in effect. Then bring them up on charges. I would like to know their current stance. After all ‘the craft’, social policies are always changing.

    • This has nothing to do with allegations or speculations of criminal wrongdoing on the part of the authors. Unless and until specific allegations are raised and actively investigated by authorities, my presumption is they are guilty of nothing. Even if charged, they are presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

      The issue here is that we have an author whose views on sexual interaction between adults and underage adolescents are less than completely unambiguous. He has the right under the First Amendment to express such views, however odious and unpopular, or to clarify and renounce them in a way that leaves no doubt.

      The problem is that we had a festival board proposing to give him a prominent platform and a paycheck at a time when our community’s record and commitment on sexual abuse and sexual harassment are very much in question AND in the fallout of the arrest of a prominent pagan public figure on charges of child pornography.

      This is a time when the spotlight is on our national community and when we’re beginning to struggle with some very basic questions about what we stand for and whether we will get serious about sexual abuse. Making the Frosts the most visible face of the movement at a prominent regional festival was absolutely the wrong answer to those questions.

      • On the other hand. The attention leaves us open for grudges and rumors (revenge tactics). (Wars and Ego disputing)
        Because in the current climateEven the ‘hint’ of wrong-doing without proof, can ruin lives.
        The analogy I can make is, people are scared of the monsters among us.
        Then you will have people exploiting that fear. Perverting it for gain.

        • There will always be people who exploit fear and chaos for their own ends. The question then becomes, have the people and groups they target left themselves strong or weak by virtue of their own actions? Going even beyond that is the question: Is it worth doing the right thing for it’s own sake?

          I have written at great length over years about the abuse scandal within the Catholic Church, some of it as a reporter. A constant cry from bishops and their apologists is that the scandals are exploited by their enemies. “People who hate us anyway keep sniping at us.” My response to them, in short, has always been: “Yes, some of them don’t care about kids, and they are attacking you. Why do you keep giving them train cars full of ammo”?

          There will always be exploiters, but institutions which develop credibility on an issue will always far better than those which do not. Much, much better. Billions of dollars better. Credibility can only be had by transparency, accountability and a track record of doing the right thing even when no one is looking. That is a damn hard currency to accumulate, and an easy one to squander.

          This present controversy around the Frosts is not, in the main, about personal allegations of criminal wrongdoing against anyone. It is a live-fire exercise or perhaps a stress test for how we will engage or fail to engage sexual abuse and harassment. It is a test of whether we can articulate any common baseline values around sexual abuse, or whether we even have any values.

          The festival board, drawing in no small part on our past lassitude on the issue, failed on that count. It also provided the catalyst for a painful discussion which I truly believe is moving us in the right direction. Ultimately, this is not about Gavin or Yvonne Frost. It is not about FPG or COG conspiracy theories or AJ Drew or any of the rest of it. It is about us.

          To put it in explicitly pagan and shamanistic terms, this is Ordeal. We can reject it and let it shatter us, or embrace it and allow it to transform us.

      • Which goes back to my statement of people not knowing what the fsck they are talking about when commenting on this situation.

        You have NO idea of what you are regurgitating, only what this “unbiased” article is telling you. The Frosts were NOT being given a “prominent platform”, they were being given a workshop. They were not even going to be given billing on the festival’s handbook! They were not going to be “headlining” the festival, they were simply going to be in attendance as elders and were going to present a workshop. I do not know first hand but have been told by a festival staff member that they were NOT being paid, only given gas money to drive down from where they live. Hardly a “paycheck”.

        I wish you and others who are not even remotely a part of the FPG “family” would do some fact checking before continuing on with your attacks on the festival and their leadership.

        • The festival’s leadership and its apologists have made it crystal clear what they’re about and where their priorities lie.

        • I wish you and others who are not even remotely a part of the FPG “family” would do some fact checking before continuing on with your attacks on the festival and their leadership.

          I am doing just that, and will be sharing my findings with the community and with the owners of Retreat by the Lakes/Camp La Llandra.

          You’re welcome.

          • The Frosts will not be coming to Retreat on the Lakes/Camp La Llandra. They WILL however, be at the Sankofa and Sirius Rising festivals (also featuring FAN FAVORITE KENNY KLEIN!) http://www.brushwood.com/sirius.html
            http://www.brushwood.com/sankofa.html
            “Saturday
            July 20Kenny Klein and FishBird
            Celtic Rock, traditional Blues, and New Orleans style musical jams. Procession to the bonfire”

    • Community safety is never just about damage control. A good portion of it will be about **prevention** of abuse and misunderstandings. Decisions about inclusion and exclusion of texts and/or persons will be part of that.

      The Frosts’ present reaction is on their blog and you can reach that if you click on their names in the first sentence of the article. A look at their present reaction isn’t a good look at the whole story.

      If you want to see the offending passage for yourself, here it is. http://tuecaa.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/protecting-pedophiles-and-holding-wicca-accountable-quoted-text-post/ This passage of the book was poorly explained and introduced and has since been edited along with the book’s title. It’s all a long story but basically, people think it’s toxic garbage ripe for all sorts of misunderstandings and that it’s not part of promoting healthy boundaries.

    • Although it is not the book, there are links in these comments to the entire text of chapter 4. Then think about getting cut first, then fashioning three phalluses (I will not sacralize them by referring to them as Shiva’s lingams).
      Oh, I forgot to mention that your father will be helping you, as he has skill with tools, to make the dowels smooth for insertion. You might be 11 years old, but you had your first Moon, so it’s time, and the only way you can join the coven. After all, if you don’t have sex with your sponsor, in front of the coven, you have no right to call yourself a witch.
      THAT is their teaching, with only condescending dismissal for the hundreds of thousands of us who were Initiated into the Old Ways and became Witches on this and all Planes without being touched except in very Sacred manners…which did not involve our Yonis, or Lingams, or penetration.

      • Thank you.
        Reading your posts have a very calming energy about them.

      • Thank you for giving Voice. Thank you for your bravery for speaking on such an emotional topic. I wish to convey my Healing Thoughts for you and others Journeying through to recovery.

        I hope you were able to get justice..

        Blessings

31. This is something that should have been embraced a long time ago. These issues are long past overlooked. If we do not protect our children what is our future going to be. We can not turn a blind eye to these problems. When we know, think or suspect that someone or a group of people are harming our children we should act, not sit back and watch as young lives are destroyed. I am trying to be as calm as possible, this issue hits home with me personally. I endured 9 years of sexual abuse from my uncle and when I finally had the courage to tell my parents they both told me they knew or “suspected”. This has followed me throughout my life. I never was able to have closure, because I could not confront my uncle before he died. Currently I am working with a good friend to help me with confronting my parents. It is hard, because I still harbor guilty feelings about what happened (even though I know that none of it is my fault). It started when I was four and I am 46 now and still it hurts and still there is guilt it never goes away. Protect our children at all costs.

    • May you find the Healing you Need.
      It always bothers me when someone says they ‘knew’ or had suspicions of…. Then ACT if you think something is wrong.
      You many never get what you need from your Parents. You were not at fault. Your abuser was at fault, and if your parents knew, they hold blame as well.

    • From what I understand, sometimes people “suspect” in the back of their mind but, the horror of it keeps that suspicion locked and buried in their psyche until they are confronted with the truth. Then, the suspicion is forced to come to the front of the brain. I’m not a doctor nor a therapist, just someone who was abused/raped and went through a lot of therapy. Our conscious and unconscious minds are so complicated. It’s rarely a black & white issue. Perhaps, now that they’ve been forced to know the truth, they may be as devastated as you. Can you arrange to have a counselor who is used to these issues to mediate between you and your parents?

      I hired a babysitter for my then 2 year old son. I had my suspicions when I came home that something was wrong (even though he came with glowing recommendations). There was nothing amiss, just my gut feeling. My suspicion has haunted me ever since. My son is 7 now and has no recollection of anything wrong, or even that babysitter. I pray everyday that my suspicions were wrong and that I didn’t put my son in such a horrible situation.

32. Dettmer v. Landon

    http://www.aren.org/documents/purplebook.pdf

    • So?

      • So, the Frosts group was the first Pagan group recognized as a religious organization at the level of the SCOTUS. It may prove to be the only positive legacy of the group, but there it is.

        How worthy is that of respect? Different people will draw different conclusions. However, we don’t need to be historical revisionists in order to believe it is not appropriate to offer the Frosts a public forum in the modern Pagan movement.

        • By the information provided in that chap book, that’s a Virginia District Court case, not SCOTUS. Additionally, because of conflicting timelines (including those given by the Frosts), the minimal involvement of CSoW was possibly at a time when the Frosts were less involved in CSoW. About nine years before that case, they filed their letter of intent with the IRS to be recognised as a “church” with tax-exemption, and and Botkin’s Church of Aphrodite pre-dates that feat by over thirty years.

          • Thanks for the correction–I was relying on memory, and, assuming you were more diligent than I was, my memory was obviously faulty.

            Thanks.

33. This is totally off the subject.. But now has me wondering about Prison Ministries. What the Pagan Community, truly feels about ‘Clergy’ going into prisons. With all manners of crimes.

    • As long as they’re going in as ministers and not residents, I’m ok with it!

    • I would hope the Pagan community would allow for Pagan clergy to assist with the spiritual and religious needs of prisoners within the bounds of safety concerns, just as the clergy of majority religions can, without backing off due to worries about ‘guilt by association’ and other logic errors. (Is it guilt by association, the Frosts and all, that caused you to pose this question now? Just curious.)

      The reasons for this can go deep.

      Part of the measure of a society is how they guard the rights and needs of prisoners, the elderly, children, the handicapped and others in more vulnerable circumstances. Part of equality is also ceasing and preventing institutionalized prejudice. Prisoners obviously don’t retain all rights but I would worry about any society that feels comfortable with stripping prisoners of their religious rights if they’re a minority. Or if they strip all rights of prisoners. (More on that in a moment.)

      Dehumanizing certain sectors of society like that (e.g. denying minorities religious rights) can easily be part of the 8 Stages of Genocide, or can at the very least be part of a national atmosphere of prejudice. Not only is it important to guard against an atmosphere of prejudice, especially institutionalized prejudice, and prisons are in institutions, but genocide doesn’t happen overnight and we should never forget that. Very often the lead up to genocide involves messing with the minds and rights of the more vulnerable among us. School children get indoctrinated and controlled more than necessary. Prisoners may have rights removed and get mistreated, especially those that are among religious or other minorities. The infirm may also be among some of the first to be experimented upon and/or exterminated in various ways. In Nazi Germany, some of the first people who were “put down” by doctors or even gassed were institutionalized people and the infirm. They tried their extermination methods on them first. They also did a lot of their horrific medical experiments on prisoners. Abusers of various sorts, either domestic abusers or genocidal types, do work on the more vulnerable first.

      Not all prejudice leads to out and out genocide, obviously, but we don’t want an atmosphere of institutionalized prejudice, it does affect the whole of society, it does, and we don’t want things to even remotely go the directions of the 8 Stages of Genocide, such as denying the religious rights of prisoners who belong to minority religions.

      8 Stages of Genocide: http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

      About Prisoners and Religious Rights: https://www.aclu.org/files/images/asset_upload_file78_25744.pdf

      The Stanford Prison Experiment Sheds Light on a Sort of Domino Effect That Can Happen Once Certain Boundaries Are Removed — Ensuring That Prisoners Have Some Religious Rights is Part of Those Boundaries:

      http://listverse.com/2008/03/14/top-10-evil-human-experiments/

      http://www.prisonexp.org/

      Useless Eaters: http://www.regent.edu/acad/schedu/uselesseaters/

      I’m the child of a woman who had to endure growing up in Nazi Germany so I’ve perhaps dug a little deeper into topics like these than perhaps a lot of people care to but there’s some reading materials to mull over if you want them, given simply because, yeah, prisoner’s religious rights are important, minority religious rights too.

34. I believe it’s important to suggest caution around the issue of evidence that the ritual was actually used. It comes from a single, personal experience, since supported by others. It remains strictly anecdotal. I find it to be valuable nonetheless.

    Several years ago I was a jury member for a criminal trial. The charges were rape, incest and corruption of a minor.

    There was a five-year gap between the alleged events and the trial. It took that long for the girl’s mother to 1) understand that there was a problem; 2) get her daughter to talk about it; 3) figure out that criminal charges were called-for. One may correctly assume that if the mother knew about it sooner, that gap would have been much shorter.

    Five years for a 17-year-old girl is one-third of her entire life. She is a far distance from her 12-year-old self.

    All 12 members of the jury agonized over the testimony and during our deliberation. There was not a dry eye in the room when we all realized we could not convict. We took minor solace in deciding that there was a difference between “innocent” and “not-guilty”, and made sure “innocent” was not used in our verdict statement. Personal note: I had nightmares about it for several months after. I have two daughters. One can well imagine the rest.

    In a previous post, I asserted that I would use violence in response to witnessing a sexual assault on a child. I stand by it. But I must also stand by the principles of our criminal justice system. In that light, were I to take such an action, I would plead guilty to criminal charges for my actions. Shrug.

    The point of our criminal justice system, admittedly imperfectly held, is that emotion has no place in its proceedings. None. This thread is not a criminal trial. By the same token, many have posted here with integrity and clear phrasing that the Frosts are not being charged and tried here or in Florida.

    • Yes, but it’s not all about whether the Frosts ever abused anyone and courts of law, as important as justice is.

      A huge part of community safety is prevention and prevention includes, but is not limited to, objecting to that which has the potential for abuse. Some of the Frosts’ work has the potential for abuse, either abuse of minor or abuse of the Pagan community.

      • A huge part of community safety is prevention and
        prevention includes, but is not limited to, objecting to that which has
        the potential for abuse. Some of the Frosts’ work has the potential for
        abuse, either abuse of minor or abuse of the Pagan community.

        Exactly!

    • As Karen notes below, prevention is just as important (I would argue is more important) than justice.

      I would also add to her statement that making our communities into safe spaces includes dealing with issues such as this up front and immediately – delays and dismissals inevitably aid and empower predators.

      • It wasn’t too long ago that I “graduated” from the daily tension of worry — my youngest is 21 — and I can safely say that we cannot exaggerate the parental POV here. My view, from experience no parent wants to have, is that prevention is never 100%. Justice is our civilization’s recourse… or it damn well should be. It, too, is never 100%. These are my thoughts, and I’m very much in agreement with all three of you who’ve responded to my previous post.

        I await the birth of my second grandchild in July. I know that my (eldest) daughter and son-in-law are just starting on that parental path. They both know I’m ready to help them, and that will have to be enough.

35. This anti-Frost attack reminds me that hate is about who you hate than what your excuse is. In the much acclaimed play Vagina Monologues the old dyke molests an underage girl and its called “good rape.” Its been celebrated at virtually every college and university in the US, and probably cheered by many of the same hate pack that is now attacking the Frosts for something they wrote decades ago. This whole thing stinks like a pickup load of bovine fertilizer.

36. I think the conversation(s) on this post have gone as far as they are going to go, so I’m closing this thread down.