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This year’s Antelope Valley Pagan Pride Day (AVPPD) had some unwelcome guests, a small group of loud protesters yelling Christian prayers and slogans. AVPPD organizers asked police to disperse the protesters, but the Lancaster Sheriff’s deputies refused to assist.
The AVPPD event took place September 27 at George Lane Park in Los Angeles County. The organization had rented a portion of the park, and was just getting ready for its first ritual of the day, a Heathen Blot scheduled at 10:30 am, when four protesters arrived. They carried signs with bible verses on them. The protesters did not attempt to enter the park, but stood on the sidewalk as one of them yelled prayers and admonishments about going to Hell.
Lisa Morgenstern, president of the First Pantheistic Center of the Antelope Valley which is the sponsoring organization for AVPPD, approached the group and asked them to not enter the park or disrupt the worship service with its yelling. Ms. Morgenstern captured the encounter on video.
Morgenstern says the protesters interfered with their religious service. “It delayed the beginning of our opening blot, because we were trying to get police response. And there were some children that he frightened because he was shouting.”
![Lisa Morgenstern [AVPPD fb page]](https://wildhunt.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/antelope-lisa-375x500.jpg)
Lisa Morgenstern [Photo from the AVPPD Facebook page]
I called the station directly instead of 911 since it was not an emergency per se. Unfortunately I do not remember the name of the Sheriff’s Deputy with whom I spoke. He did tell me, however, that despite the fact that we had a religious event going on, that he could not take action because the picketers were not on the park property but on the public sidewalk. I walked towards Wayne to notify him of this information and he pointed out the Deputy parked on the lawn, and I spoke further and walked over to him. As I walked the Deputy on the phone was apologetic but did say that they would make a point to slow down their drive-bys when they came by the park to make their presence known. Deputy Goldman told me the same thing after speaking with the Deputy at the station on my cell phone at the request of the station Deputy, that he could take no action without them stepping into the park. At this point I was in tears because I know that it is illegal to disturb a religious worship service in California intentionally, and this was definitely intentional. I asked Deputy Goldman, who was still sitting in his vehicle by the way, if he could walk over to where they were and maybe just observe them and cross his arms and let them know he was there, or look threatening? Please? He responded, ‘I’m not going to do that.’
Morgenstern says the group went ahead with the blot and tried to drown out the protesters, who continued to yell until they left, sometime in the afternoon. “The things that he was yelling bothered me enough that I actually turned on some music and tried to drown him out,” says Morgenstern.
![Ritual held at the September AVPPD event. {Photo from AVPPD fb page]](https://wildhunt.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/antelope-valley-ppd-500x375.jpg)
Ritual held at the September AVPPD event. [Photo from the public AVPPD Facebook page]
On March 16th, 2002, a Spring Equinox ritual was held in the parking lot of a Lancaster Pagan shop when a group of Christians arrived to protest. According to news site Unknown Country:
At first the Christian guests remained mostly seated along the edge of the Pagan ceremony, praying quietly. Among them was a volunteer chaplain from the Lancaster Sheriff’s Office who sat in an SUV with its motor running. But as the ceremony got rolling, the Rev. John Canavello [of Life Changers Christian Center ], who has since been suspended from the Sheriff’s office, allegedly pumped up the volume on his car stereo, drowning out the Pagan songs with a loud blast of Christian music, according to High Priestess Cyndia Riker, owner of the Witches Grove gift shop, which hosted the event. Rikker says the protesters then circled the Pagans and began praying loudly.
This time, too, the Lancaster Sheriff’s department, located 3 blocks from the store, was called but didn’t arrive until 4 ½ hours later, long after the Equinox service had ended and the protesters were gone. Lancaster Sheriff’s Capt. Tom Pigott said California law only places limits on protests taking place in tax-exempt buildings that disturb a group, not events held in parking lots.
The AVPPD doesn’t know to what organization or church the protesters from the September 2014 event belong. But organizers say they feel unsafe knowing local law enforcement won’t assist them if they have problems. “Our Pagan Pride event is considering whether or not we need to move back to Palmdale,” says Morgenstern. She added, “We had moved to a county park to save money, but I can say with great confidence that if I call the police in Palmdale, we get response there. The mayor of Palmdale, James Ledford, in grave contrast to the standing Mayor of Lancaster, is open minded, and attends almost every Antelope Valley Interfaith Council event.”
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Nashville PPD is scheduled for October 11th. We will have security on site that we secured through the park service. We also will have the road into the venue blocked so cars will not impede on pedestrian traffic. If protestors come into the venue and harass people we will have them escorted out. If they stand at the top of the road and wave signs we won’t engage them in conversation.
This band of Christian thugs also had their own security as a woman among them was carrying a weapon. But I agree with you, engaging them only encourages them more. In hindsight, ignoring them and cranking up your boom boxes in the vendors booths would be more effective. If the Christians do not think they can be heard, then they will stop.
I just watched and listened to the part where the “woman … carrying a weapon” clearly explained it. I respectfully request that you delete or retract the first sentence in your post. Thanks.
Um, no, because her excuse was lame. She wasn’t just out walking, she was there with her preacher friend to protect him.
Exactly. Their BS is BS, plain and simple.
A thug is a thug, Christian or not !!!!
Even as a Christian I agree!!!!
The fact that you’re willing to give a bully and an abuser the benefit of the doubt speaks VOLUMES. You’re clearly letting your privilege in this area show. NOBODY just happens to be “out taking a walk” while carrying a weapon, not unless their intent is to intimidate people they may encounter.
I carry a knife smaller than 3 inches and a Leathermen with me most places. I’m not out to intimidate anyone. I’m not defending someone brandishing a weapon, seeking to intimidate others, or someone threatening others without due cause. Not especially someone that is allied with jerks that seek to interrupt a PPD or any gathering like it. That said, plenty of people have weapons on them for self-defense without needing to brandish them at people.
Fair enough, but that was more my point –when someone goes out with a steel baton in their hands, holding it the way she was, it’s purely to intimidate people. It’s a bullying move. Yeah, I get that some people have pocket-knives on them, and there are conceal-carry and open-carry permits, but what the shit, this was clearly NOT such a case. Her dumbass excuse was dumb and so painfully transparents it was cling-film.
Agreed, just felt I needed to say something. ^_^
I don’t blame you –technically correct is the best kind of correct.
That you assert the ability to read my mind speaks VOLUMES about your distrust and disrespect. You are an internet* troll, a subtle one to be sure, but a troll nonetheless.
* I want to avoid insulting forest trolls especially.
Not so. I have a friend who conceal carries a firearm everywhere he goes. It’s just his way.
Meeting sensationalism with sensationalism accomplishes nothing. A weapon? Hardly.
A baseball bat is a weapon. Did you see the grip on it? No it wasn’t long but it was long enough to bash your head in.
She had a steel pipe, it looked like part of a bicycle handle, with a bicycle grip on it. Would definitely work to bash something with. Could have been part of a weight set. She said she lived in the area and she carried it to protect herself from dogs. She was around most of the day, a big part of the day, watching the children playing in the playground (creepy). She did go put the pipe away because after I filmed her with it, I didn’t see it again. The video was to document and provide evidence. When you have that information, had there *been* violence with that item, I have evidence of someone having it in their possession. We do have dogs in the area that can jump fences and bite so I did agree with her when she said that, but she sure did hang around for a long time. There were a lot of suspicious things that happened that day. The Christian Church who attended our event? One of their congregants told me that they were saying nasty things about us from the pulpit the next day. So they were nice to our face and nasty about us to their people. That person left their congregation over it. Wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Wow. I stand corrected.
And gentleman enough to admit it. You are a rare person.
Thank you.
From what I saw was also possibly a “tire thumper” sold in many truck stops. There were two types that I saw, one is metal with a rubber grip, the other is hickory. While some old time truckers supposedly “thumped” their tires to check for inflation, the tire thumpers sold would fit the definition of a baton. In California, its illegal to carry a baton. I used to carry my tire thumper in my car until someone alerted me to the law.
Was this in CA? And you say she had a weapon? How did THAT happen??
Did anyone notify the police that woman was carrying a weapon?
Although I’m not a religious person it sounds very bizarre that one group, would bring a baseball bat or steel pipe as defense to a spiritual service.
That sounds like some Neo Nazi, skinhead stuff. Like when the racist guy shot up a Sikh temple.
Neo-Nazi, sure. But please, PLEASE educate yourself about the skinhead subculture before you automatically associate them with Nazis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead
My bad. Thanks for the link.
While I don’t usually recommend Wikipedia, the Skinhead Subculture article is actually one of the fairest and easily-accessible descriptions of the subculture and its history.
the best way to deal with them is to video tape them with our smart phones. and post all info on the internet. being a pubic bigot, is a sure way of getting fired and unemployment for the rest of your life. because corps check out these things online before they hire you. video tape their license plates and get their names. and get the names the cops that look the other way. and post it anomalously, so they cant sue you for tell the truth.
What a nightmare. This Christian is a bully.
ALL Christians are bullies!
No, they aren’t all bullies. That’s just not fair to the Christians who are tolerant. Many of the Bible thumpers brand of Christians may have tendencies toward violence because of their indoctrination, though.
Not all are bullies but it is time that we ask members of the Christian faith to do what we are demanding of the Muslim religion: that is, the “moderates” need to get out, speak out and stand up to these bullies or folks such as those who tried t disrupt the PPD event will be the sole representatives of Christianity. If Christianity is loosing followers, it is because younger folks see behavior such as this and believe that these “protestors” represent what Christianity is all about.
Exactly. Those Christians who just sit back and expect their “tolerance” to speak for itself, well, they end up, by proxy, becoming tolerant of bullies such as this —which really makes them no better. This is not a false dichotomy —if you are not explicitly against them, then your actions will show tolerance of this violence and intimidation, and basically be for them.
Oh, stop playing the blame game. These idiots (the bullies) were out of line and there’s no excuse for the Sheriff’s dept refusing to enforce the law. We all, as citizens, need to demand equal protection for each other.
FWIW, I consistently speak out against this sort of thing and publicize the fact it happens. We all need to be free to engage in whatever faith practices and rituals we hold important. Let’s not blame Christians or whoever because the bullies themselves claim that association.
IF I ever meet a “tolerant Christian” (and that is a MIGHTY big “if”) I’ll change that attitude, and let you know. Don’t hold your breath.
Go talk to some Episcopalians. They’re almost like UUs.
I’m a tolerant Christian and I myself have native American beliefs in spirits and natural powers, so yes there are those of us out there who are tolerant and also believe in your ways of worship.
Ah, Christo-Paganism –where one can have one’s cake and eat it, too.
That’s a charming attitude coming from a belief system that has gods and goddesses and practices from many different cultures. I myself am Pagan, but was once Christian. Your intolerance and anger isn’t anymore right than that of a thumpy Christian. If a person wants to incorporate Christ in their beliefs, who are you to judge them?
I don’t care if certain pagans want yo incorporate the Abrahamic figures into their beliefs and venerable –but don’t act like it makes one representative of “good Christians”, since most Christians won’t accept Christo-paganism as Christian
But don’t you see –they ARE tolerant! They’re so tolerant, that they tolerate bullies and aggressors like this to speak for their whole religion!
I am a christian but I am also pagan be cause I believe that there are many paths and everyone should chose what they want to call upon. To me all regions all are so similar 🙂 I just like morals and Jesus is my mentor because he is who I grew up with. I love magic and earth and I am very upset that christains give Jesus such a bad name. Shame on them if Jesus was around he would have been standing not with those on the sidewalk but with you guys. Jesus was about love and he was just a spiritual guru. He didn’t really have a religion that is why he said God. Meaning higher power or becoming ascended. He also opposed the church till he died. He never wanted to be put in he same category as the Sadducees. Jesus hated the oppression in the dark ages that the church had over everyone. His new testament was about freeing us fro. Church oppression sadly many Christians are doing what Jesus didn’t want oppress..he wanted to free us from he church control.
That was not love you guys got…I am hoping someday all religions, races, and just plan differences will be in braced not shunned. Besides if everyone was the same then life would be so boring 🙂 namaste!
I’m sorry, did you just imply that Pagans have no morals? I can’t see any other way to read “I just like morals” as part of an explanation for why you are Christian.
WOW.
You ARE aware that Jesus didn’t invent morality, right?
I am a tolerant Christian. Being from the renaissance faire circuit, I have many friends with many religious beliefs, and I’m respectful of all of them. Being a dick to someone because their spirituality is different from yours is like being a dick to someone because their favorite color is different from yours.
You are correct. For many years I’ve been reading the blogs of progressive Christians, and connecting with them on Facebook. They’re quite dismayed by people like the ones in the video here, but they don’t want to make a spectacle of themselves by yelling and screaming, so they just stay quiet most of the time.
And that silence is tolerance of people being bullied.
Well, you can think that way if you wish. But there are people out there doing things like being compassionate and accepting, just not being media whores about it.
Would you accept it if someone said “all pagans are satanists?”
No, not all Christians are bullies. I have quite a few Christian friends, and we respect each other, and get along quite well. Not one of them has ever bullied me or even tried to convert me.
The few Christian “friends” I had, I don’t any more, because they would not stop trying to convert me, telling me I was going to Hell because I wouldn’t “admit that I loved Jesus.” They refused to even listen when I told them that I can’t love what never existed, because I don’t believe that Jesus, as described in the bible, ever existed, let alone whether he was divine or not. I’m STIL often told that my religion is a fake, made up religion, despite the fact I don’t have a religion, I have a faith. There is a big difference.
The only way I can talk to Christians, without having my faith insulted, and them trying to convert me, is to HIDE my faith. I am sick of hiding who I am to make people happy with me.
Try attending some Interfaith events. You will meet people of all faiths including Christians who are accepting of all faiths. It’s a wonderful experience. I recommend it.
I’m very sorry you’ve had a different, and worse experience. That doesn’t change the fact that not all Christians are bullies. I would definitely consider taking Lisa’s advice. Attend an Interfaith event; the people there are there to converse, learn, and share.
And not all white people are Klansmen –which is why it’s extra-important for white people to speak out against the Klan (and NeoNazis, and so forth), because failure to do so tends to translate as condoning those activities, whether one “really does” or not.
I don’t care if your Christian friends are some of “the good ones” and thus so tolerant of other religions it makes my teeth hurt –the question isn’t whether or not they really believe all religions are equal, the question is “what have they done to help enforce that?”
Obviously the problem is the person not the religion sometimes people chose regions that give them rights to hate certain people. So if not Christianity the. They would have still judged you just because some people are very open minded or want to be pagan but are to scared to say they are. Don’t Gide who you are some people no matter what you can’t please them. You should just say good ridance and get yourself some better more healthier friends. Even if you are different find people that aceept it even if they aren’t a pagan. That is how you will know you have a good friend. 🙂
same for me
No not all Christians are bullies. I know for a fact one attended the Dayton Pagan Pride Day several years and helped out at a vendor’s booth (his wife’s actually). I believe he would have a few words for the protesters and their unChrist like behavior.
That’s as bad as the Christians in the video saying that all Pagans are going to hell.
Don’t sink to their level.
Don’t tell the oppressed not to be angry at their oppressors.
Just want to point out that when I approached the picketers, I was not wearing my really cool hat. 🙂
I wondered about that, Lisa! It is a cool hat.
My heart really goes out to you, Lisa. We’ve had several run-ins over the years, but always quietly resolved and the police called only once. The “protesters” left as soon as we told them that the police were on their way.
Yes! This is a good idea. 🙂
Franklin, that is excellent!
Blessings to all!
I live in Pennsylvania, where there is enormous resistance to Pantheism. My suggestion is this (and it obviously won’t work if there’s no prior knowledge of the protests) – if anyone threatens to protest, have an “Adopt a Protester” drive here on Facebook and make sure the protesters know about it. The purpose of the drive is to have people donate for every protester that shows up. The proceeds could go to one BANGING Samhain celebration some year!
(If it works, invite me and I’ll make the trip for Samhain!) 🙂
LOVE IT !
I really *wish* we had enough volunteers to do something like that. We need to have trained volunteers to handle that. And it does really take training, because it’s hard to stand and ignore and not respond to the vile nasty things this guy was saying. At one point he did say something like, “killing rabbits and cats will not make you holy, only Jesus will!” Which would have outraged many of our vegan Pagans… not to mention the ones who simply love animals. I did have a chuckle over that. But it was hard to ignore, for my own well-being I had to tune it out by putting on music. When we offered water to them a little after lunch time, they took it and left.
I’m guessing, but it seems like a good guess: the offer of water affected them more than any words of appeasement or argument you could have offered.
What about asking a Guardian Angels Group. They are non violent.
Hi, Lisa! I think you handled it as well as anyone could, and I’m sorry you had to deal with this guy, his followers, and a lack of police help.
I saw that the media covered the conflict in 2002 and called it “Wiccagate”. Has there been any response from the media or the Interfaith folks like last time?
I’ve reported it to the Lancaster Tapestry commission. I know that they will do some investigation, and the members of the former AV Human Relations Hate Crimes Task Force, some of them were in attendance at AV Pagan Pride Day. So we are looking to hopefully get some investigation done. I just need to try and decompress.
Lisa: I will be sending you and your group energies of peace and spiritual healing.
Wow…I don’t recall anything in the Bible where Jesus acted like this. This lady was polite to him until he was obnoxious and then she assertively informed him of her rights. It’s so sad to watch people behave this way. I think they sort of embarrass most Christians, too.
It’s also sad that the police local to them can’t or won’t do anything to help.
It is also sad that this has happened TWICE now with the same local police.
If he had we wouldn’t be dealing with so many Crazy Christians like this today…
If most Christians are embarrassed by this, then more of them should speak out –but they don’t. It’s like the school teachers who sit there and tell the kids being bullied that no-one likes a tattle-tale and just ignore it and hope it goes away; they are clearly complicit in this “bad behaviour” of certain Christians which, in situations like this, well, that alleged “embarrassment” is really no better than giving explicit support because of the simple fact that, at most, these so-called “tolerant Christians” might just blog about it. Oooh! Scary!
I agree totally. They should speak out more. Maybe then it would be less pervasive.
That’s a shame, people like that give christians a bad name. I consider myself pagan, but I do go to a local christian church that is highly accepting of anyone who enters their doors.
So… The Christians who sit there and do nothing about it? That’s giving Christians a GOOD name? You have some messed-up priorities.
I do feel the need to point out that it was just the one guy doing the yelling and being belligerent. The rest of them just stood there with their signs, being as respectful as possible while letting him do all the dirty work.
there’s nothing respectful about holding up signs that clearly are meant to oppress the people of a specific religion practicing their faith.
Oh, you mean like when people protested a ritual at Pantheacon with signs? You mean that kind of oppression? Instead of protesting the PERSON they were meant for?
What, are you talking about the protest of Z Budapest’s transphobia and her TERFtacular “genetic women only” ritual?
Yeah, a sign saying “All Bodies Are Sacred” is really oppression.
Far more polite than I would have put it.
Yes, well….
The ritual that was itself being discriminatory and oppressive? Is that the one you mean? Because it wasn’t just Budapest who was being oppressive there.
I was going to ask “what specific religion practising their faith?”, cos last I heard, “paganism’ was a collective of religions, then I remembered that the PPD bylaws are *loaded* with Wiccanate Neopagan privilege and prioritises Pop Wicca over all other religions –so, my bad.
That is the way that protesters work, however. I have a friend whose family are experts, used to protest a lot of things in the 70’s and is quite familiar with technique. I got a gold star from her on how I did… I don’t know why people are always surprised that I can comport myself well with nut burgers. Patrick McCollum was surprised too when I got subpoenaed to speak regarding a Wiccan inmate’s case and I was professional.
There’s nothing respectful about intimidating people.
So what if “only one guy was doing the yelling”? And what about the woman WHO BROUGHT A WEAPON? Was SHE just standing around and letting him “do all the dirty work”?
Isn’t there a law about “disturbing the peace”? Because that’s exactly what they are doing.
When dealing with the police, one has to find the right “code words” to use. Every infraction is placed on a “serious” or “not so serious”. So in this case, I think if they had complained about them disturbing the peace, they would have gotten a better response. Sometimes when making complaints to the police, people can be too specific. Rather describe what is happening, and that these people are making you feel threatened (bumps your complaint up from public nuisance–low priority–to scary public nuisance). In my experience most PD’s don’t tolerate street preachers, for that reason.
The street preacher crazies are already gathering here in Salem,MA. October is only 2 days old, and Haunted Happenings have just started and already they are on the Essex Street Walkway screaming at people about hell and damnation. They usually don’t crawl out from under their rocks this early. Interestingly enough it’s like our crazies and these crazies are reading from the same script. You have to wonder if they all belong to the same Facebook or Yahoo group and share harassment… excuse me… witnessing techniques for public spaces.
At least in Salem we can rely on our local cops to keep these nut jobs from getting out of hand or from disrupting public ritual Circles on the Commons.
I have trouble with this whole “witnessing” thing, because I wonder how the people who do this can’t understand how annoying it is, and that all they’re really doing is irritating people.
It’s beyond irritation; they are attempting to intimidate people. And they appear to have the cops in their pocket, which I should think would interest the California Attorney General.
In CA hate crime law the key words are threatened and intimidated… using those words usually helps… Know how the laws are worded and use that language. Of course had I dialed 911 the whole call would likely have been recorded. Sigh.
I’m willing to believe that Kamala Harris would be interested. As far as I’ve seen she’s Good Folks, and good at her job.
They generally don’t care if they are irritating people. In fact, many of them seem to consider it a bonus because they convince themselves it is the ‘demon’ possessing you that is being irritated by their awesome, Jesus granted, spiritual ninja powers! (Can I get an AMEN!?) Because we all know that only people possessed by demons can refuse the word of the one TRUE God, hallelujah!
:/ I mean, I thought the point was for people to listen, and no one’s going to listen if they’re just annoyed. In that case, the person doing the witnessing should care. And if someone’s irritated because they’re possessed by a demon… wouldn’t a demon (in their conception) be more than just irritated?
I dunno, it doesn’t make any sense.
Did you see the one lady in the video who didn’t even want to talk with the PPD folks when they tried to engage her in conversation? Her hatred was really evident.
By being belligerent and irritating they are trying to get a rise from you. If one of the pagans threw a punch or threatened or intimidated THEM, then WE would be guilty of a hate crime… We were doing our best to make sure that no one bothered THEM either… Yes they have a first amendment right, but it ends where ours begins. AND we had a permit to be where we were. They did not.
They also relish any opposition they receive, for it confirms to them that the Devil is opposing their “message”.
They have this really strange way of making new mythology and belief patterns that justify all of their worst behaviors, the irritated demons for example. And when that’s the case, reason and logic go out the window. It’s a self-created madness.
And confirms their bizarro belief that they’re an “oppressed minority” in the Western world.
If he was truly “witnessing”, ie, trying to convert them, you would think he would have stopped yelling and talked with them when they came up. No, he was only there to disrupt the services.
Indeed, and thus, I don’t understand his motive. Perhaps because his only real motive is to just be a jerk?
Look up the thread. The goal there is to get someone to start something. He was spoiling for a fight, the rest were witnesses… and the guy in the red shirt.. he was a off duty or retired cop that was with the Christ’s Church of the Valley that had a booth there.
Street preachers have a different motivation than your average evangilist/fundamentalist Christian. Their goal is not to convert, but to “witness” to you the Gospel message, so God can send you to hell without feeling any guilt. Look up Calvinism, in particular Predestination doctrine.
Street Preachers usually come out of a Calvanistic milleau, and as such are actually looking to provoke your pagan group into hostile action. While they speak of the activity as “crucifying the flesh”, I found them to be quite egotistical and attention seeking. They best way to deal with them is to simply ignore them. They hate that.
The previous renters included just such a street pracher. You could smell the house from three lots down, with one exception, the neighbors were afraid of the whole lot (at least 10 members, allegedly, of the same family lived there), and some of the house had to be destroyed because of the amount of damage done.
Neighbors like us just fine–we had a NY Open House the one after we moved here so that the neighbors had a good excuse to come and look us over.
That’s probably because in Salem it’s bad for business.
I think this is where Pagan Knighthood could come in real handy. A bunch of burly tattooed pagan biker people standing guard at the Watchtowers and Quarters would be so kind of our Pagan Folk to do.
Yes I commented about this too
My husband meets your description quite well, actually. He’s also a military veteran. Alas, his bike is in the shop!
Or, for those of us who are non-Wiccan, just people standing at the boundaries?
Just make sure you don’t recruit members of the Pagan bikers.
If you did, I guarantee you wouldn’t have any more problems with those evangelists. Ever!
With swords.
I’m sorry that man that believes in the bible is an atheist and is judging other religions. Lesson 1. within his belief do not judge others as I am the light and the way “something like that anyway” so he’s going totally against is preaching’s.
On some levels, it sounds like a job for the Patriot Guard Riders, yet not quite.
Maybe some pagan bikers can form a group and do what the Patriot Guard does when Westboro Baptist comes out to picket a fallen serviceman/woman’s funeral. They park their bikes between the picketers, they have big flags mounted on the backs of their bikes to provide something like a fabric wall, and they rev their engines when WBC’s singing and chanting gets out of hand. Would anyone be willing to form something like this?
I don’t know if intimidation will work. After all Christians fall back on the whole “consider it a blessing when you are persecuted in my name” thing. Being confronted lets them go home feeling victorious.
Maybe we need a few volunteers to be “converts”. To go engage and tell their stories and keep the protesters wrapped up in trying to “save” them. It will keep them busy and mostly quiet. Then when the event is over and the converts still haven’t converted, the protesters will go home feeling conflicted.
Just a thought.
I’m not sure that “intimidation” would be the goal here. Just blocking them. Just interfering with their ability to disrupt the event. Nothing more.
As a Pagan, I have a great respect for all faiths. If you’re on a path which fulfills you, stay there, even if it’s not mine. But morons like this are the reason so many Pagans have a negative view of Christianity. What’s that saying? “Jesus, please save us from your followers…” Well, I think they’re talking about this guy. And it’s sad. Because that’s not what Christianity is about, or at least not what it’s supposed to be about. Jesus didn’t teach a message of hate or anger, he never once spoke of sending people to “hell.” Instead he instructed his followers to “Love one another.” If this is what this man views as love, I would truly hate to see what he considers hate!
I dunno. That’s the kind of person that there’s no sense in talking to. I think it’d be better to offer cookies and a bottle of water, and ask him for the address of his church so you can come pray for him, then walk away.
What I would recommend is allying with other Christian groups that are more Pagan-friendly. Maybe they could talk to the protesters or act as a “buffer”?
Christians do what Christians do. Hardly surprising. I guess, in some ways, this actually makes them “good” Christians.
sue the pd for failure to do there job. and it is public records on what calls the pd/sheriff was responding to. use that as evidence against the pd/sheriffs
I think its unfortunate that they had to endure this but if your community worked together you could raise money to buy your own land to worship on as a community and hold your events.
Yeah, that’s like herding cats. I’ve been trying to get people together for the last 12 years to help out. I’m trying. However, if you knew about the point of Pagan Pride Day is that it be held in a place where non Pagans could attend, and be educated. That’s the point of having it in a very public place. We do have gatherings in that park which have been unharrassed by picketers, they have been less publicized.
I feel you on the herding cats bit but its not impossible. Its a matter of how well prepared you are when approaching people with a proposal and whether or not you can get people motivated to be proactive in working towards a common goal. Much is out of your hands with such a thing but it is definitely something that is attainable. Nothing good ever comes easy. I understand the point of Pagan Pride Day but you can be open to the public on private land also. Im really sorry that you guys had to deal with such rubbish and I hope you guys have many peaceful gatherings in the future. Good luck to you 🙂
I’m guessing you don’t live in CA, where land costs are through the roof. It would have to be a very wealthy community, alas.
You’re right. I don’t live in CA but a simple search on LandandFarm and LandWatch returns quite a few possibilities for land at a reasonable price.such as 10 acres in LA County for 18,745 that would be less than 400 dollars per person if you can find 50 people to go in on it. Nothing worth anything is easy. Instead of thinking of reasons why you can’t do something find the reasons why you can. Good luck to you 🙂
I’m not looking for communal living, and those 10 acres in LA county are likely unimproved, and for a good reason.
I’m not sure if the Kingdom of the West still has a Land Fund going or not.
I’m sorry you have to put up with predators (not protesters, protesters protest civil matters, not religious meetings) because you don’t have a tax-exempt place of worship. Your city should really be protecting your religious rights, whether or not you can afford a permanent haven for rituals.
Too bad a person can’t call in the state police to arrest non-performingn/rights-infringing local cops.
That’s not why the Christians stopped by to harass them. Furthermore, one of the explicit goals of PPD events is public outreach and education, and the PPD bylaws state that PPD events should be held in areas open to the public, and state specifically that a public park is preferred.
If they truly believed what they were preaching, they wouldn’t need to intimidate people.
That would make sense, if it was onot an established fact that many sects of Christianity teach their throng to intimidate people, either to convert others or to “show how much [they] believe”.
I’m not going to get into what sect teaches what, or even worse, what sect should be allowed to teach what. If they want to dishonor their faith, let them. They will do more damage to themselves than anything I could do.
And yet it’s the churches that teach hate and bigotry that are growing, while more “tolerant” or even “progressive” sects are decreasing in numbers. You can’t just brush these people off.
I have a rule that I call parity. I don’t want to control someone else’s thoughts because I don’t want them controlling mine.
Are you willing to live under their rules?
Just briefly going through this thread to find where you replied to me, it certainly seems that you’ve given your energy to these Christians you despise. It’s certainly shaping your thoughts and actions. You might want to think about that.
this is why the christian community is failing and will soon become the minority in the religious communities. its disturbing really that not only did Christianity steal Pagan beliefs and traditions and make them their own some 2014 years ago and what they didn’t like they demonized, but it is more disturbing that this religion contradicts everything they preach about. Christianity to me symbolizes 3 things Oppression, Persecution, and Hypocrisy.
Considering how intolerant Christians are, I feel no compunction against showing the same intolerance back to them. There is NO level of tolerance for hate.
Please don’t lump all Christians together. I have several Christian friends who are nothing like this jerk and his flunkies.
And? Your friends have nothing to do with this.
My Christian friends are relevant to the conversation because they prove that one cannot lump all Christians into one group any more than Pagans can be lumped together in one group.
I will not respond to you again, because I find you to be angry and inflammatory no matter where I see you commenting.
So how often have your Christian “friends” spoken out, preferably publicly against these “bad ones”? If they have, then they’d be relevant to the conversation.
And I don’t care what you say you think, a failure to respond is evidence of a weak argument.
Well, what if someone said “I read about some pagans who are violent and badass and are serving life sentences in jail” and then you said “but I’m pagan and I’m nothing like that” and the person you were talking to said “you have nothing to do with this”
You need therapy, dude.
It’s really not helping OUR side at all when one person does what you do – deliberately ignores evidence that contradicts what you want to believe about Christians. You make us all look like ignorant, intolerant idiots. Please, just stop. You have been told numerous times that there are very tolerant Christians out there but what do you do? The equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “LALALALALAAAALALLLAAA, I’M NOT LISTENING!!!!” Like some kind of spoiled 5 year old. Get over it.
Someone TELLING me something exists is not evidence of that existence, otherwise the Bible would be a reliable source of data. It’s not.
I have the evidence of MY OWN experience to go on. The abuse and intolerance I’ve dealt with from Christians is true. What others tell me is still subject to needing verification by experience. It isn’t that I am not listening, it is that hearsay is not evidence. IF I ever encounter a tolerant Christian, I’ll believe they exist. Until then, who are you to tell me what to believe? And I STILL hold that there is no acceptable or TOLERABLE level of hate to deal with, so I won’t tolerate the bullies that tell me what I have seen with my own eyes is FALSE and FAKE.
You have no choice but to believe your own experience and be prepared. I honor that, I’ve had situations just like that in my life, and I stand with you to reject others’ imposing contradiction upon you.
There is a point, though, where constant vigilance and tension will wear you down and burn you out. I experienced that as well.
There is a different choice offered here. Let yourself be vulnerable again. Try to keep a more objective eye open for the possibility that Christians who are not like those who’ve hurt you are out there, even near you.
It is your choice, no one else’s. No one has the right to force you to make it or to fault you for not making it.
Be well, and in all things, be well.
Yes but when you refuse to even talk to other people who are there, and you can find them easily even without leaving your house, then that’s on you. That’s your responsibility. You are sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “I’M NOT LISTENING! I don’t WANT any evidence to contradict my views!” Why don’t you just admit it?
By your own logic, I shouldn’t believe in intolerant Christians because the ones I know are not like that.
this made me sick to my stomach….
So sad to hear fellow Californian Pagans were being harassed and bullied by Christians. The Police should of made them move far enough to continues the ceremony without loud noises.
Wonder what that guy would do if one of the pagans walked up to him and said, “Yes, you’re right. Please stop yelling and pray with me for my soul.” I bet he wouldn’t stop. Because he wasn’t really there to ‘save’ anyone’s soul….he was there to say “LOOK AT ME! I’M HOLIER THAN ALL OF YOU.” What he really is is an adult-sized bully. The women he was with at least had the decency to look a little ashamed. And I don’t believe for a second that woman’s broom handle was just for warding off dogs. Does she go around beating dogs that run up to her?? Even if it was, the person behind the camera had a right to be concerned based on the already threatening behavior this ‘christian’ group was exhibiting. I’m scared for us. For them AND us….that those people can walk around with that much hatred for people who are different than them, and for those of us on a different path. That whole thing made me want to cry. Humans suck.
And just recently, I read an article about how Christians believe that THEY are the most harassed and persecuted group in the nation. I guess their definition of “persecution” is one that says: if we can’t annoy everyone else, make the world bend to our worldview and if we have to tolerate other belief systems..then we are persecuted against. The longer I live, the more I can’t stand these people.
For those who say this, disagreement, and alowance for other faiths/spirituality is their definition of harrassment & persecution.
So much ignorance, so much hate, I wish people would do thier own research, there is so much more information in Gnosic view books and simply asking questions that would help these people have a much better understanding of all the different paths. I have been a faithfully practicing Wiccan for 16 years now and I am at peace with my path regardless of how I was raised in a very strict and devout Christian home. So sad
I do not understand how the public sidewalk is somehow a location at which the law cannot be enforced. Those “protesters” were clearly breaking the law. Since when does any self-respecting law enforcement officer pick and choose what to enforce?
Were they clearly breaking the law? Or were they protesting in a public space, as is their right? Much as the Supreme Court upheld Westboro Baptist Church’s right to protest at funerals, despicable as they are.
Warbands, anyone? I suppose it would just inflame the situation, but the vision of Pagan events being guarded by club-wielding, War-Goddess and Oath-God worshiping, wolf-and-raven honoring, ecstatic warriors (of every gender) is a satisfying one.
No, I’m not seriously suggesting it, more’s the damn pity.
I seriously support it!
Definitely in violation of the CA Penal Code:
Related Crime: Penal Code 302 – Disturbing a Religious Meeting
In Penal Code 302, California law prohibits one from disturbing a meeting comprised of religious worship. The statute is analogous to Penal Code 403, except that it carries a one-year maximum sentence (whereas Penal Code 403 only carries a six month maximum). 3 The harsher sentence reflects the public policy interest in protecting the sanctity of religious meetings
In which case, take them AND the police to court, for failing to obey/uphold the law.
Except PPD would probably NOT be counted as a “meeting comprised of religious worship”.
Why not? The ritual was willing assembly of people celebrating and addressing the Sacred. That’s an all-American religious meeting.About 25 years ago Cleveland area Pagans started holding annual public Samhain services downtown. Unlike Lancaster, the Cleveland police did their job and arrested a vocal nay-sayer for disrupting a religious service.
Based on my attendance of two PPDs, so I am talking from a very limited dataset, very little active religious worship takes place. There’s classes, there’s talking, there’s vending, but aside from the main ritual, there isn’t a lot of actual “worship” going on.
The devil’s in the details…so to speak. I think Jason may well be correct, though it would take a lawyer looking over case law to be sure, and I’m definitely not that. :-/
I gathered from the video that the protesters were disrupting a ritual.I would be amazed if there were no laws broken in disrupting vendors. After all, this is America; commerce is on a level footing with God. 😉
I can’t watch more than a few minutes of this without wanting to harm my own ears. This was a clear case of bullying, and I can still hear that guy’s voice ten minutes after stopping the damn video. I have a possible solution to prevent it from ever happening again though: hold your events on private property. Yeah, it sucks, but the dominant religion of our land just happens to be one of the most busy-bodied faiths next to Islam.
I dig it, we have the same rights as anyone else to practice our faith, but let’s be honest with ourselves here. Huge swaths of Christian America think WE, the LGBT community, and pretty much anyone else who doesn’t jibe with their book are the reason their country sucks so bad. Literally. They think we are the source of all that is wrong, and that goes to their most inner core where the cognitive dissonance is like pancake syrup.
Knowing this, why would you expose yourself to it in a public park? Is there really no one in your local Pagan community who could have donated space? Druid Groves? There are four active ADF Groves in Michigan. I apologize if I sound in any way combative, this video really angered me, and I can’t help but think the whole situation could have been avoided. Honestly, if I saw people getting baptized or a revival happening in a public park, I’d be tempted to raise a stink too.
Going to try an ‘OM’ this damn headache away now….talk amongst yourselves.
The point of Pagan Pride is to have the event on a public location to educate the public.
Yeah, Lisa is right. By holding these events on private property, it ends up being “preaching to the converted.” The problem is, when it comes to public events like this, this is the risk pagans take.
I’m only aware of the three Groves in Michigan, currently: Mine (Cedarsong Grove, in Lansing), Shining Lakes Grove, in Ypsilanti/Ann Arbor, and Grove of the Midnight Sun, in Bellaire. There was a fourth, Twilight Flame, but they have closed in the last year or so.
Is victim-blaming the hot new fad around here, or something?
Try contacting the State Police before the event ask if they will respond if the local police will not.
You must know a lawyer you could have at the ready. There were lawyers and even law officers in the Craft in the 70s, there must be some still. Other than that, what do you expect when you are persecuting Christians by excercising your religious freedom?
As a practicing Wiccan, for the past 38 years, and a lifelong Californian, I am appalled at the Sheriff’s Dept. and the so called Christians ! When I was much younger I would have said “turn around is fair play, and stood on the side walk of their church and sang Pagan songs and dressed Pagan to the max ! To quote my youngest daughter, ” The Gods don’t like Ugly”. So be It !
Folks, this is 2014 !!!! Not 1714 !!!!
I’m not an attorney, but it seems like they were interfering with your civil rights. Might be worth a free consultation to see where you stand on this issue. People tend to be less likely to participate in such activities if they believe it will cost them.
Time to fight back, fire vs. Fire style. Use your energy to match theirs: everyone gather, face these a-holes, and make more noise to drive them off. Scream, drum, whatever. But do it with intention. Magic for self-defense.
Unbelievable Christians are still bashing Pagans & anything they don’t understand or agree with in the 21st century. They have forgotten what their religion is suppose to be about..tolerance.
Be creative. Disguise a powerful positive ion emitter as a wand and when you wave it at the protestors it will charge every piece of metal in its path so they will get all kinds of electric shocks and have no idea where they came from. Add the appropriate incantations and they will think they are really being cursed.
Hello everyone, I’m a Pagan from Ontario – I assist in running our local Pagan Meet & Greet and would like to say I applaud your struggle and kudos to how you handled the harassment! Unfortunately it seems these types of protests will always plague our peaceful gatherings – but by handling it with grace and strength like you showed, you have helped to prove that we aren’t the horrible nasty things they think we are. Well done, and hopefully sharing your story inspires many other communities to keep thriving! (as it has also inspired us up here in Ontario 🙂 )
Cleveland PPD had protestors its first year. The head of the event used to go to Catholic school and was able to reason with them. They haven’t bothered us since.
I am a pagan, but I have also been Ordained as a Minister through Universal Ministries. Those protesters need to be given a history lesson from someone like myself, they would be set straight in a hurry then.
I just want to applaud Lisa for staying so calm and cool headed. Bravo! Not sure I would have been able to stay so calm. Especially with the screaming Christian showing so much disrespect to not only you but the entire Pagan community. Oh, and your hat is awesome! 🙂 )o(
I would have contacted the city or county solicitor. The county commissioners over sees the Sheriff. Perhaps talk with your State Rep or Civil Liberties and file a lawsuit. Law enforcement is their to protect and serve. NOT select, protect and serve. Perhaps find someone who owns a woods or field who would be willing to allow you to use their property. You could be selective who you leave in without the nut cases and wondering eyes and everyone could peacefully enjoy the ceremony. Just some suggestions.
I am so embarrassed by my Christian family, and I apologize for their behavior.
I wonder what would happen if local pagans went to their church and stood on the sidewalk and did some drumming and chanting – all during their Sunday service.
What would happen is that 90% of the people in the church would have no idea what it was all about. This thought experiment — and thank you for suggesting it — illustrates the fact that the christonazi protestors do not reflect the common run of Christians.Another result of such an action would be to feed the meme among the people in the church that Christians are persecuted in America. That floats the boat of the folks who organized the christonazi protest, the last thing we want.
Given the inevitable issues that come up whenever anyone other than a Nazi is compared with being a Nazi, may I suggest the alternate terms “Dominionists” and “Christianists”?
I do agree that we need some kind of terminlogy to describe the deliberately provocative and hostile portion of the “God botherers” (as one friend describes them). This type is a serious pain in the butt, and one reason I’m grateful not to be a Christian is that I don’t have to drag the dead, rotting weight of their public image around with me…
One needs a bit of background to grasp the alternative terms you suggest, but keep trying. I’m not intent on raising side issues.
Well, here’s a little context. Dominionism, according to Right Wing Watch:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/dominionism-and-religious-right-merger-complete
And here’s an influential Time article by Andrew Sullivan on the difference between Christians and Christianists. (It really annoyed the Religious Right when it came out, although, sadly it is behind a pay wall.) He says it’s that it’s at least partly the difference between a religion and a conservative political agenda.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191826,00.html
I like “Paulists” vs “Christians.”
Did you ever hear about Pussy Riot?
Pussy Riot’s actions in a Russian Orthodox church did not infringe on an ongoing religious service.
Of course, George Fox (often described as the founder of the Religious Society of Friends) did use to disrupt ongoing religious services. Did it all the time.
Mind you, that WAS in a time and place where the church he was disrupting was part of the state. Perhaps that mitigates his actions… perhaps, so does the fact he was aware he was going to be jailed for it?
I find it hard to transport myself from the First Amendment environment I grew up in (and saw grow up with key Warren Court decisions) to Fox’s time, when the church was an arm of the state, with my structures of judgment intact. Perhaps even my wits intact. The law Fox broke had different premises than ours, about disrupting the Lord’s work, not infringing on someone else’s most basic rights.
We are having our PPD tomorrow (Oct 4) and do hope this sort of thing doesn’t happen to us. We have rented the entire park, including food vendors and music system. Its a sad day when the “Christianistas” who are not really true followers of their Christ but opposite, are allowed to disrupt our services etc, but we can’t do anything in turn to them. WE NEED a New amendment added to the Second Bill of Rights – FREEDOM FROM RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION! I believe all bullying would then come to an end.
Adding to the Constitution a repetition of what it already says would not solve the problem of a police department ignoring said Constitution. That’s a matter for civil action.
I was going to say, find somewhere with a large area and a long driveway with you at one end and the protesters at the other end unable to enter…very disrespectful! Freedom of religion much?
I have to disagree that the police were wrong in not acting. The penal code cited, and its interpretation on the linked page, state that the interference has to substantially impair the ceremony, and that the interference is due to behavior, not the message expressed.
Lisa Morgenstern, president of the sponsoring organization, said: “The things that he was yelling bothered me enough that I actually turned on some music and tried to drown him out.” She clearly stated that it was the MESSAGE (the “things”), not the behavior that bothered her. Further, Morgenstern claimed that the protestors interfered with the beginning of the rite. Actually, from her own words: “It delayed the beginning of our opening blot, because we were trying to get police response.” It was due to trying to get police response that the rite was delayed. Had the one protester shouted: “save the environment,” it would not have been an issue. It was the message, not the behavior.
Regardless of who rented the property, both parties have the right to express their religious beliefs in public. Concerning the claim that the one protestor was
too loud, it’s not supported by the audio recording. The person recording the protestors walked just a short distance down the sidewalk, and I could no longer hear the one protester shouting. When the person recording walked back, I could again hear the one protestor. His voice was evidently not as loud as claimed, and was not substantially impairing the rite. Had the protestor stood right outside the
circle, or within the circle of the rite, that would have been substantial impairment.
I disagree that the police were at fault for not acting.
It’s obvious that the protestors wanted attention, and controversial attention at that. From a practical standpoint, the best thing to do would have been to simply ignore them. Morgenstern obviously got her feelings hurt. It was a pagan pride event, and Christians got a word in. It is sad that Christians would act with disregard for others feelings, but it’s not illegal to do so.
I’m afraid this may be an unpopular opinion, but I think you’re right, Distinct Phoenix.
They were certainly obnoxious, and it’s quite possible there was more to the situation than the video showed. But based on the video alone, I’d be inclined to agree with you. (I’m not clear if the complaint was called in due to other things not in the video; it may have been, of course.)
Forcing a delay of the ritual is clearly substantial impairment. No, if one party has a land use permit to exercise its religious freedom, another party may not disrupt said exercise in the name of their own religious freedom. Had the Christians silently picketed well outside the ritual area with signs expressing their views, that might have qualified for what you are saying.
The protestors didn’t force a delay. Morgenstern delayed the rite to contact the police, but she blamed her having to contact the police (and hence delay the rite) on the protestors. Read Morganstern’s quote. Further, consider the logic of her claim. If she called the police ten times (and hence delayed the right from starting ten times), would that mean that the protestors delayed the rite ten times? No. It has to be the protestors, regardless of whether police are called, that are determined to be the ones that interfere substantially for there to be substantial interference. Once the police did nothing, the rite started. Why? Because the protestors never delayed it.
Of course the protesters forced a delay, by motivating the leadership to delay it with their rudeness.
No, if that was the case, every time the police are called over alleged substantial interference/delay of a meeting, ceremony, rite, etc., it would be deemed substantial interference/delay just because someone running the meeting took the time to call the police. Every alleged incident of substantial interference/delay would be deemed guilty just because someone took the time to call the police. The protestors actions are what have to be evaluated by the police, not the response by those conducting a meeting, because they could just be over-reacting. A subjective claim is not enough.
If a ritual is scheduled for 2pm and doesn’t start until 3:30 because of outside interference, it’s hardly a subjective claim.I pulled those numbers out of a hat because I’m not responding to the specific instance but replying to your sweeping claim.
The police aren’t going to care how long Morgenstern decided to delay the ritual. They are only going to be concerned with how the protestors behaved. You’re entitled to your opinion though Baruch. Thanks for the discussion.
Point is, the police do care, as in the case in Cleveland, if they are at all interested in minority religious rights. Antelope Valley police are not; they have a record.
If it hadn’t been for the protestors, she would not have had to contact the police. You seem to be missing that point.
I’m not missing that point. I’m just not agreeing that the facts support a violation of penal code 403c. The rite did start when the police did nothing, so it could have started had she not contacted the police. I agree that what the one protester was saying bothered her. But again, penal code 403c focuses not on the content of what is said, but on the behavior. Morgenstern admitted that it was “the things” they were saying that bothered her. That’s not substantial interference.
“Believe … and thou shalt be saved?” From what? Or whom? Those pompous, self-righteous ninnies? They would swarm over Jesus and clobber him to death if he appeared before them.
Those are Christians thise are haters. I think that guy was a little bit to happy talking about hell. Dude hell was a term he popes used in the dark ages to gain control over the masses. Its fear based. Hell is symbolic and so is heaven. To me its a state of mind like finding your inner peace and balance of yin and yang. Basically in the me devil times everything was symbolic its not mean to be literal. Like angel wings halos jus mean good hearted while a demon is just bad intentions. I believe when I die I am going go to sleep peacefully until my soul wakes up again in a new body with a new mission. 🙂 oh and I am a christain but only because of Jesus. He was a good man who had much to teach about being the best me. 🙂 I love morals and magic and crystals earth tarot astrology spirit animals. I just love learning about regions. 🙂 I believe someone cannot write a good paper in college without multiple sources as I believe someone cannot be fully edilucated with just a math class. To be educated we need all subjects this is how I view religion. 🙂 if I was standing there as a Christian I would have told that guy this is disrespectful and if be really loves our god he should just smile say god bless and walk away. Oh and appologize. Eheheh and then u would have asked to join because I am curious what the event is like 🙂
Back in my Catholic days, I led a protest to the first Harry Potter movie. We took signs there and handed out flyers to anyone who wanted to know about various things associated with children getting into magic or witchcraft. We were quiet and stayed on the sidewalk. Looking back, there are a whole lot of things I know now that I didn’t know then, but I don’t feel bad about doing it and I don’t feel stupid. I was a faithful daughter of the Church back then doing what I thought was right. Protesting and the right to gather are precious rights we enjoy as Americans and I laud these folks for coming out to that park out of love and wanting to help. What I don’t appreciate is 1. How that man raised his voice as to not listen to the recorder finish her sentence. 2. The rationale one woman had about children being loud at the park vs the man yelling, as if they were the same. There is some critical thinking not happening when people are uncomfortable about what’s going on. 3. The one woman who said that the Pagan folks should just ignore them and be better off. But if we went into their church, nay even stood on their sidewalk and did what they were doing, I seriously doubt she’d think the same. But that begs the question, why do we have to ignore them but they don’t have to ignore us? 4. Woman carrying a weapon. Dogs? My eye, lady. She was called out and you could hear the uncomfortable timbre of her voice. Not fooling anyone, luv. Esp one who used to be you.
Good job on recording this. In all honesty I don’t think engaging them in conversation about their faith is useful. Folks like this tend to be heavily indoctrinated and know their faith, have an answer for everything and no “gotcha” question or well intended conversation is going to change them, esp in a public place where saving face is going to be an issue. They are not going to waffle in public or on camera. If anything they’re going to double-down or get violent. I truly believe that standing firm and demanding our rights and making information available is the best. Great vid. Gonna share it on my page and hope the word of tolerance gets around.
Except they weren’t there to “help”, they were there to intimidate. Catholics operate very differently from Calvinists. Catholics think everyone can be “saved” and tend to protest more peacefully. Calvinists believe that they are among a select few in their generation, and aim to prove this by getting into fights, like these people (especially the loud one) were *clearly* looking for.
On the contrary, they were absolutely there to help. Help via prayer, witnessing or yes intimidation. All of those things are historical ways Christians of all stripes used to help/aid etc others come to believe as they do. I recognize that their intent is positive and I can appreciate that. Not like it, but appreciate it. In my experience, Catholics are anything but peaceful. I know people, work with people, who have told me to my face that they would sign up for a crusade that day if the Pope called for a new one. And they are not alone. I’ve learned not to trust Christians. In my experience, they talk peace and mercy but have violence and conquest in mind.
Hard to believe police wouldn’t support them in the 21st century, since witchcraft is a valid religion and despite that no one has the right to disrupt an approved group to share it’s message (free speech, regardless of Christian doctrine).
My solution for this? Pray for them. Right in front of them. Doesn’t matter what your religion is. I’m Christian myself, and when I encounter groups like this, I get down on my knees and pray to my God to remove the hate from their hearts so that they can follow his true path to salvation; by being good to their fellow man.
There’s two positive points to this approach: one, you’re doing something good by praying for another human being. Two, it pisses them off. Or, it has in my situations.
“Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.” ― Oscar Wilde
The bible didn’t teach him good manners obviously …
I didn’t think it was supposed to teach manners. 😉
I am Abyssal wicca. I have dealt with pricks like this. I simple have Broke there thinking process b telling them that i have read all the bibles and they are all connected. Even my own bible concludes with the Christian bible. My path follows the Vatican in Wicca
We just came home from a PPD in Las Cruces, NM, and it was lovely and peaceful. I am thankful to the Goddess for that!
The Christians have a very long history of intolerance, persecution, torture, murder, and destruction of peoples that did not embrace and adopt their myth they consider the only true religion. They are the only religion that believes they are right, and all others are wrong. Read history. Read a good novel such as Anne Rice’s lasher to see how loving the Prysbeterians were to the Scottish Pagans. Have you ever heard of the INQUISITION? Look at the power they have seized in American politics. Wake up people.
Slight correction. The Inquisition was generally directed at Christians who were deemed heretical. It was designed to go out and essentially quiz (inquire of…inquisition) Christians on the faith to ensure doctrine and dogma were uniform. It was at times directed against others, Jews for example were targets and others (I don’t like calling historical persons pagans or Pagans, they weren’t, that was an insult) The Christian faiths have done massive crimes against others but just for historical sake and accuracy, the Inquisition was not specifically for that. It was originally directed at their own. Also, they are not the only religion that thinks they’re right. Many branches of of Islam believe that. And personally why read Anne Rice when you can pick up any decent history book and read about Christian hate and intolerance of others? Don’t get me wrong, Anne Rice is pretty sweet. Her Sleeping Beauty series is on my list. (:
Get history from a fictional novel? Erm, no thanks. And yes we have all heard about the Inquisition.