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Pagan elder joins Westminster Faith Debates

Heather Greene By |

The presence of women, as 51% of the population, needs to be there in leadership roles to reflect spiritual balance. – Bharti Tailor, Executive Director of the Hindu Forum of Europe.

On May 26, the Westminster Faith Debates hosted its latest discussion at the St. James Church Piccadilly in London. The evening’s subject was “What Difference Will Women Bishops Make?” Although the question focuses on a hot topic specifically for the Church of England and its communities, the organizers brought in panelists from a number of different religions, including Paganism.

[Courtesy L. Woodhead]

[Courtesy L. Woodhead]

Elder Helene Mobius of the Pagan Federation was asked to sit on the panel to provide a Pagan view on female leadership in spiritual organizations. Facilitator Dr. Linda Woodhead of Lancaster University said:

We invited Helene because paganism is one of the only religions in Britain run by substantial numbers of women for women (and men) and with beliefs and practices shaped accordingly. So we knew she would have an interesting perspective to offer to a C of E which is only just starting to put women clergy in positions of the highest power and influence. 

In November 2014, the Church of England approved the ordination of women bishops. Then in January, Right Reverend Libby Lane became the first woman to earn the title and position of bishop. While the ceremony did not go without protest, she was successfully consecrated before an audience of 1,000 people. This happened twenty years after women were first ordained as Priests.

Since Lane’s ordination, the community has continued to argue over the merits of having women bishops, and how this new evolution in leadership will change liturgy and Church culture. Professor Woodhead, along with her co-facilitators, chose to use the Westminster Faith Debates as a forum to tackle this subject.

Helene Mobius was one of nine women who spoke that evening. Mobius is the Prison Ministry Manager for the Pagan Federation and faith adviser to NOMS. She explained, “The interfaith work done by others played no small part in my invitation, and although some Pagans would not like to be seen as ‘mainstream,’ our inclusion in this type of debate can only help lead to a better understanding between faiths.”

The eight other panelists included:

Professor Woodhead, who is the director of Westminster Faith Debates, presided over the event, along with Professor Adam Dinham of Goldsmiths University of London.

[Courtesy L. Woodhead]

Back Row: Adam Dinham, Helene Mobius, Saleha Islam, Lucy Winkett, Katharine Jefferts Schori, Hilary Cotton, Linda Woodhead.  Front Row; Nissa Basbaum, Kate Bottley, Bharti Tailor, Laura Janner-Klausner  [Courtesy L. Woodhead]

Mobius told The Wild Hunt, “As a Pagan Elder, I was given the opportunity to add a different perspective to the line-up of speakers, and judging by the warm reception from organisers, panellists and members of the public, I believe there is genuine interest in Paganism and our participation.”

That perspective was clear in the quotes and various online accounts of her talk. In a tweet, Westminster Faith Debates quoted Mobius explaining that “Paganism can be considered as fundamentally matriarchal … but is not primarily about gender.” She also said, “Pagans have a deep reverence both for femininity & masculinity – conjoined and mutually enforcing.”

Similar to Mobius, speaker Bharti Tailor, Executive Director of the Hindu Forum of Europe, reportedly spoke of the balance between the masculine and feminism within her religion. She was quoted as saying, “Divine women stand alone and complete.” But, as blogger Sally Rush wrote, “[Tailor] said it was easier for women to gain access but then they had to make sure they kept access.”

Unlike those two religious groupings, the Church of England and other monotheistic faiths have struggled with the notion of female religious leadership. Over the past century, an increasing number of women have moved into the clergy positions, that have long been held exclusively by men. For example, in 1935, Judaism reportedly saw its first female rabbi in Germany. Just last week, Religion News Service published an article titled “She’s black, gay and soon you can call her Rabbi,” which tells the story of Sandra Lawson, a member of the progressive Reconstructionist Jewish tradition. The article notes that “Religious role models are a critical component of identity formation” and, as communities diversify, the leadership roles need to reflect the diversity. This same point was made during the debate by Dr Katharine Jefferts Schori. She noted that “White, male, English-speaking bishops with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge are only one sort.”

In April, seven women were ordained as Catholic Priests within the organization Roman Catholic Women Priests, a movement that began in Germany in 2002 with now reportedly has 208 women Priests. One of the women, Andrea Johnson, told the local New Jersey news, “We bring an aspect of inclusiveness that people want … We are as capable, if not more capable, of doing the pastoral work our communities need.”  Another of the seven women said, “I think when people look back in, say, 100 years, they’ll ask, ‘What was the big deal?’ And really, what was the big deal?”

And that “deal” is part of what was being addressed during the Westminster Faith Debate. How, if at all, will the growing presence of female religious leadership change liturgy, experience, religious culture and climate? Will women have to “morph” into men in order to hold these roles within the current institutional structures? These are just two of the many questions asked of the panelists.

While many of the speakers addressed the struggles as they applied internally to their own religious organizations or faith groups, Mobius’ reportedly focused more on the global issues and external oppressions that make use of aspects of Paganism. She said, “We still have women suffering abuse and being accused of witchcraft all over the world. [We] need to shake out of apathy.”

Blogger Sally Rush, who described Mobius as “one of the most interesting speakers,” reported that Mobius looked “at the way in which words which were intended to be good have been demonised and continue to be demonised. She focused on crone and witch as terms which originally meant elder and wise but have been used to condemn and commit violence against women.”

Rush also quoted Mobius as emphasizing that, “We have to move beyond divides between men and women and on to a more symbiotic approach.”

Another issue that was addressed was the need to avoid constructing a new unyielding paradigm based on female leadership. In the tearing down of the old rules that blocked women clergy, the community should be careful not to create new identity-based limitations and expectations of those that achieve that status. Diversity should be reflected across gender as well as within. 

Rush offers a solid overview of the entire debate, hitting many of the main points. She noted the generational differences in the definining of one’s feminity, or holding on to whatever that means, when taking on a position held traditionally by men. Rush writes, “it reflected the desire of third wave feminists to be able to keep their femininity and authenticity.” Rush also lamented the “binary nature of the discussion,” adding that it emphasized the “need to include the voices of T and gender queer people in discussions like this rather than marginalising them to debates on sexuality.”

Last week’s debate will be available via podcast on the Westminister Faith Debates site.  The next debate will be held in June and will focus on “Social Cohesion – Lessons from the Pennines.” Then in July, a new panel will tackle the subject of extremism, asking  “What should schools do about Radicalisation?”

The Westminster Faith Debates are funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC), Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) and Lancaster University, and are held “in London every spring, and open to the public free of charge.”

Our institutions need to recognise and affirm the value and role of women in religious organisations – Hilary Coton, Chair of WATCH

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18 thoughts on “Pagan elder joins Westminster Faith Debates”

  2. a) “We still have women suffering abuse and being accused of witchcraft all over the world. [We] need to shake out of apathy.” (Mobius)

    b) Blogger Sally Rush… reported that Mobius looked “at the way in which words which were intended to be good have been demonised and continue to be demonised. She focused on crone and witch as terms which originally meant elder and wise but have been used to condemn and commit violence against women.”

    erm, in one statement she talks about women being accused of witchcraft as a bad thing–but at least in this excerpt, doesn’t mention the cultural interpretation of that word (at least as translated in English) and how it differs from most Pagans’ definition of their practice of the Craft (for those who identify as Wiccans or Witches). King James I and VI translated “poisoner/poisoner of wells” as ‘witch’ (can we say agenda?), the Navajo meaning is someone out of balance or harmony with the world, who does only bad things, sometimes supernaturally bad things. I’m not remembering what many African cultures call ‘witches’ and ‘witchcraft’.

    In the next excerpt, she talks about how terms such as crone and witch have been demonised. The context seems to be European, though.

    • Also, “witch” has never meant “wise “. The etymology of wicca/wicce is unsettled but attempts to derive it from any root word related to wisdom were debunked decades ago.

      Whether one considers paganism to be “fundamentally matriarchal” would depend on one’s definitions of paganism and matriarchy. This is the sort of thing I believed (and taught!) in the 1970s, but it’s at best a half truth. The remark is quoted out of context so I won’t be more critical than that.

      It’s unfortunate but not surprising that popular Neopaganism propagates origin myths that support its moral claims in the same way that Christianity does. Interfaith understanding will benefit when the representatives of the various religions have a good understanding of the actual histories of their own religions as well as an appreciation for the moral teaching value of everybody’s different mythical narratives.

    • No, the poisoner mistranslation of m’khashepah has been debunked for decades.

  3. I would have loved to be at that event. Thank you for reporting it. I’ve put my comments, on three different points, in three different posts so that there might be clarity if someone was going to discuss something in them.

    So, we have: Since [the Lane’s]* ordination, the community has continued to argue [about] how this new evolution in leadership will change liturgy and Church culture.

    Small problem. Started 35 or so years ago. Mary Daly, Carol Christ, Rosemary Reuther, Elaine Pagels… I guess they got overlooked.

    The editorial board for The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha, Augmented FOURTH Edition, New Revised Standard Version went backwards and removed all the attempts to be inclusive in the text.

    * the Lane’s ordination…” Editorial hiccup–if it were me, it would have been a change from “the bishop” to “Lane’s” which caused it.

    • I totally agree about the feminist theologians you list.

      I’m not sure I agree that translations of the Bible that use non-gender-inclusive language are a step backward. My preference would be to use gender inclusive language when it can be reasonably supported by the original text, but not to rewrite a text. Much better for readers to struggle with a difficult text and learn the historical context for the ideas in it.

      The proper place for rewriting language to make it more inclusive in any way is in the prayer books and other liturgical materials. Non-Orthodox Jewish prayerbooks contain prayers and readings in Hebrew, Aramaic and the mother tongue of the congregation. Some prayers are recited twice, in the Semitic language and then in the vernacular, and the translation sometimes differs a lot from the original, reflecting more contemporary religious understandings.

      • I concur on the feminist theologians. I cut my Pagan teeth on Mary Daly in 1986.As to implications, I can point to the experience of the Unitarian Universalist Association. UUs don’t have bishops but the ministerial base has been in flux from largely male to (iirc) majority female since the UUA mandated a top-to-bottom review of gender and language in 1977. There have been sexual misconduct scandals (when everyone else was having them, too) of exclusively male offenders. The pulpit has evolved from the property of the minister to a resource of the congregation. The polity is evolving from stark majority rule to efforts at consensus. I know, one can call post hoc fallacy, but it’s a set of interesting correlations.

    • Yes. Thank you. The typo was corrected.

      As for the context of all of Mobius’ statements, as well as the other speakers, the podcast should help answer many of the questions. Most of her quotes above were pulled from a variety of reporting sources. When the podcast is available, I will add it into Pagan Community Notes. I’m sure many will be interested to hear the full discussion.

  4. Good on the C of E for being willing to listen to what people from other religions have to say on this topic. Refreshing in today’s climate. And good on the Pagan participants.

  5. This “Elder” should have known a lot more history, as the other women probably should have as well. “Matriarchy”– I thought that myth went out of style many years ago. And, by the way, there is no such thing as a so-called single “Paganism” unless you are referring to the modern religions, including Wicca, that take this appelation. I really have to correct so much. Thank you for ignoring the Anomalous Thracians article which was just posted last week for your education. It seems to have made no difference in the level of ignorance on the part of some of the reporters of The Wild Hunt.

    • Heather Greene was reporting on what other people said at the discussion. She is not responsible for the content of their opinions. Her responsibility is to quote them accurately.

      Speaking of ignorance, are you aware that Heather Greene is the editor in chief of The Wild Hunt? She is the person who gave The Anomalous Thracian an entire lengthy article on this blog in which to explain his views. Most of the people who read The Wild Hunt don’t follow The Anomalous Thracian’s blog, so she has provided him an audience he would not otherwise have. I appreciate that as I like to learn; the Thracian probably appreciates it too.

      • I managed to miss that column, which I rather enjoyed.
        I remember hearing of the kerfuffle about polytheist self-identification at PCon two years ago, and shaking my head at the idea that someone would deny someone self-identification of whatever sphere. I’ve never understood that “you’re delusional/you can’t call yourself that” practice with marginalized folks, especially.