Gavin Frost, 1930 – 2016

Heather Greene —  September 13, 2016 — 187 Comments

In the early morning hours Sunday, Wiccan priest, teacher, and author Gavin Frost died after enduring significant pain from numerous internal physical problems. Gavin had surgery scheduled for late September, but his physical condition worsened making the operation impossible. As early as July, he told his daughter Jo that “he was ready — if he got really sick again to let him go.”

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“Blessed Be those who seek” – Gavin Frost

Gavin Frost was born in Aldridge, Staffordshire, England, Nov. 20, 1930. According to Raymond Buckland, Gavin was “raised in a tight-knit family group ruled by his hard-working, hard-drinking Welshman grandfather.”  But in 1936 after his grandfather died, Gavin’s family moved way from the area to the southwestern coast of England. His daughter Jo said that, as a little boy, he was fond of watching the busy planes and trains moving about the region.

Earlier than most, Gavin was enrolled in boarding school and, after completion, he began his studies at the University of London, King’s College. There, Gavin developed an interest in math and physics, graduating in 1952 with a Bachelor’s of Science in math. He eventually went on to earn a doctorate in physics and mathematics, finishing his dissertation work with the Department of Atomic Energy in Cumbria, England.

In the meantime, Gavin also was developing an interest in the occult. Along with the sciences, Gavin studied the history and mythology of the U.K. and the people that had lived there. In 1948, he was initiated into the coven of Boskednan, based in Cornwall. In a blog post, he wrote, “At that time the young people in college and returning from World War II were all into new lifestyles and religions.” Just as he was finishing college himself, the Witchcraft Act of 1735 was repealed and Gardner and other occult figures were becoming more public in the country.

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During the following decade, Gavin pursued a successful career with the aerospace industry, married his first wife Dorothy and moved and traveled around the world. He lived in Canada, England, the U.S. and Germany, eventually settling in Southern California. In 1966, he met Yvonne Wilson, who was also working in the aerospace industry. She would eventually become his second wife and partner in religious work.

In 1968, Gavin and Yvonne moved to St. Louis, Missouri, and formed their first coven using the correspondence course method. This became the Church and School of Wicca, which still exists today. The couple married in 1970, and obtained tax-exempt status for their church in 1972, making it the second U.S. Pagan church, behind the Church of All Worlds, to receive that coveted status. Additionally, Gavin and Yvonne were members of the first American Council of Witches, which met in 1974 at Witchmoot in Minneapolis.

At the same time, Gavin and Yvonne began writing books and attending events. Their very first book proved to be their most controversial: The Witch’s Bible: How to Practice the Oldest Religion was published in 1972. It was followed by The Magic Power of Witchcraft in 1976 and many more over the next forty years.

In addition, their work, specifically their writing, was instrumental in helping the Craft increase public legal recognition in the 1980s. Their teachings were cited in the Dettmer v. Landon case in Virginia, in which the judge eventually ruled that Wicca was indeed a true religion. This was one of the many such cases being heard over that decade.

In May 2016, Gavin told The Wild Hunt*, “To be clear on that topic: The prisoners in Virginia who started the case which got the ruling should be credited with having a great intestinal fortitude and causing the judge to rule in our favor. Yes, we wrote the letters; yes, we published a book.  But we did not actually bring the case before the court.”

Through the 1990s and 2000s, Gavin, along with Yvonne, continued to teach on the festival circuit, to write, and to act as clergy through their church. They took a vow of poverty, and eventually moved from Missouri to New Bern, North Carolina and then to Charleston, West Virginia. They also appeared on radio and television and, despite their disinterest in using email, they eventually began hosting a blog called “The Dancing Wiccans.”

Jo recalls, “[Gavin] was a loving, if not always present parent, putting the Church of Wicca as his first priority — a journey he and Yvonne shared […] Part of the joy of the Church of Wicca for him was challenging people to see if they lived up to their aspirations for themselves, something he also struggled to do. He searched his whole life for wisdom, sharing what he knew along the way.”

But Gavin’s life was not without controversy. Speaking on a personal level, Jo said, “Most of what people do not like about Gavin had to do with how he challenged them […] They would leave a conversation angry and then try to make that fit their paradigm, but he challenged himself as much as, or more than, he challenged others around him. I think that is an inherent part of who he was — are you facing your demons? What do you see there? […] He was not an easy person to know.”

Beyond the personal, Gavin, along with Yvonne, were continually at the center of public controversy surrounding their 1972 book The Witch’s Bible: How to Practice the Oldest religion. It was considered highly controversial from the day it was released, as noted by Gavin himself, and has been openly rejected by many ever since. According to several accounts, the book allegedly almost led to a court case in 1974, only two years after its publication. By Gavin’s account, the problem was over its title, not its content. However, others remember differently.

Regardless, as time went by, it was not the title that continued to ignite outrage; it was, in fact, the book’s contents, specifically those pages describing the sexual initiation of children. Protests over that content have erupted as recently as this past spring. When the book was re-released in 1993, it reportedly was altered, including a note that addresses the offending sections. It was also renamed the Good Witch’s Bible. Gavin said that the book was edited again for a 2014 reissue. He said that this later edit was done in the wake of that year’s protests and at the “urging of other Wiccans.”

[Courtesy Chas Clifton]

[Courtesy Chas Clifton]

Over the past several years, Gavin began making fewer and fewer appearances at festivals. Part of that was directly due to the enduring controversy with fewer venues wanting the couple to present. When asked about his decreased attendance, Gavin told The Wild Hunt that, in addition to the community backlash, “We’re not sure that we have anything new to say to festival attendees.”

He also added, “We are getting older; travel is becoming more and more stressful.” Jo agreed, saying that her father had been slowing down over the past four years. During the 2016 FPG event, Gavin had to be taken to the hospital.

Doctors eventually discovered a tear in Gavin’s intestine, which was causing significant discomfort. Surgery was scheduled for late September. However the tear worsened, causing more damage, internal infection, and severe pain. He was rushed to the hospital Sept. 5, and admitted to the ICU. Jo said, “There are no words for his experience. His nurses would cry because they felt so sorry for him and there was so little they could do besides manage his pain and try to rebuild his strength. His body released him early [Sunday] morning allowing him to cross over and to be free of the pain.”

Gavin Frost was one and will remain one of the most controversial figures in the modern American Witchcraft movement. With that said, there are still many people who continue to be devoted to the Frosts, the Church and School of Wicca, and its teachings. There are also just as many who will continue to speak out against that work and writings.

A memorial is being held Sept. 25, at 2 p.m. at the New River Unitarian Universalist Fellowship in Beckley, West Virginia. During the service, there will be an opportunity for those that wish to speak in remembrance. Jo said, “We wish for this to be a celebration. We are all so very grateful for everyone’s kind words and thoughts.”

What is remembered, lives.

 *     *     *

[Editor’s Note: After the most recent controversy, The Wild Hunt reached out to the Frosts for an interview on the book and the issues. Due to Gavin’s illness and their use of snail mail, the response was not immediate. However, they did eventually respond, answering all the questions. The quoted conversations made to the Wild Hunt in this article are taken from that letter.]

 

UPDATE 9-15-16: This article was updated to correct the year of the Frosts marriage from 1968 to 1970.

Heather Greene

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Heather is a freelance writer and journalist, living in the Deep South. Professionally, she has worked for Grey Advertising Global, Coca Cola Company and GCI. She has collaborated with Lady Liberty League and has formerly served as Public Information Officer for Dogwood Local Council and Covenant of the Goddess. She has a masters degree in Film Theory, Criticism and History from Emory University with a background in the performing and visual arts.
  • Wendy Foulke

    From what I’ve heard the guy was a creep

    • Andrea Marie Ohern

      “Only believe half of what you see and none of what you hear”
      Gossip has a way of becoming truth through repetition.

      • serafina

        It isn’t mere gossip. He and his wife advocated that young girls be “relaxed” with wine and deflowered with a wooden dildo before initiation – by their fathers. It was in a book the Frosts authored. It’s not known iif they carried this out, but young girls in the pagan community have come forward claiming they were molested, and that the perpetrators used the Frosts’ book to sanction their behavior.

        • Andrea Marie Ohern

          Please share your source information? I am genuinely curious, and if presented with evidence, will adjust my position accordingly. Intellectual honesty demands humilty, and I freely confess that mine is likely not the finest mind on this post.

          • serafina

            It was in a book the Frosts authored called The Witch’s Bible, first published in the 1972, I believe. Not to be confused with AJ Drew or the Farrars books with a similar title. I remember reading the passage about.the proper way to deflower a young girl (with a dildo) before her initiation many years ago. My recollection was also that the child should be inebriated to “relax” he, and it was preferable for the dad to do the dildo thing. Blech..

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I am referring to the allegations of abuse ocuring at the hands of followers. I yield the point that the passages exist. It is irrefutable to an intellectually honest person, although, in my defense, I interpreted them as an anthropological description rather than a manual for instruction. Of course, I’ve never been very skilled at blind devotion, either

          • serafina

            I reread the passage. It was suggested that her dad or her “sponsor” assist her if the dildo caused her discomfort or pain, and also that the mother should make sure her son’s foreskin wasn’t tight if it was a boy. Then the child should observe an adult couple having intercourse so they’d know what to do.

            Anyone not creeped out?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I yielded that point, Again, I simply ask for sources for the rumors of it ever actually occurring. Nothing more. I don’t even ask for proof that the Frosts may have been involved, only that you can provide evidence that someone took the ‘instruction’ as literal and carried it out.

          • I see you’re plenty stocked up on kerosene for your gaslighting.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Why is asking for evidence a bad thing? And personal attacks are uncalled for, disrespectful, and immature. They add nothing to the discussion except discord

          • Pardon me for failing to mourn such petty hardships as yours.

            And the victims of his book are out there. Just ask without accusing them off not even existing.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Perhaps you should receive read my comments. As for petty hardships, I’m not sure if I understand what you are referring to. And I have been asking for nothing EXCEPT evidence. I have never denied the existence. I havery made it clear that I had never seen evidence beyond rumor. Your personal attacks suggest perhaps you are not discussing intellectually, rather from emotions. I have yielded the point and admitted my error. Be at peace and go your way

          • Tim Workman

            The Book has been in Print for 44 YEARS. . little miss smart ass, WHERE are these victims, i want police reports, the whole 9 yards, i guarantee you wont produce any. EVER, get down off that high horse before you make a fool of yourself

          • serafina

            Can I provide evidence? No. but I have had conversations with women in the pagan community who report they were sexually abused as children by people who said it was sanctioned by the Frosts. The women were bitter.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            So, personal experience. Ok. In that case, I yield the point to you and stand corrected. I admit being wrong. I have no personal experience, and have never actually known anyone who has. However, if you have, I respectfully admit I was wrong

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            One of my favorite expressions, one I strive to live by, says “intellectual integrity requires intellectual humility”. Peace to you. I was in error.

          • serafina

            Please don’t misunderstand me. I very much admire your determination not to be ruled by popular opinion and gossip. I cannot substantiate the women’s claims, only the passages in the book. I personally found their comments about being abused in our community compelling but this part is utterly subjective.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            If you have heard first hand accounts, that stands as evidence. However “I heard from a friend about someone who…” doesn’t. Yes, I am in error. I prefer to err on the side of caution

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I suppose I should confess my own tendencies towards academics. The nuances of social interaction tend to escape me when discussing things wherein passions seem to take precedent. I apologize if I have seemed cold hearted or distant.

    • Diana Lynne

      Scorpio…They do have a stinger. My mom was a Scorpio.. She was a difficult person to get along with too. Controlling and have very short tempers

  • Elizabeth Creely

    I must say, I think it’s very odd that in the two obituaries I’ve read, the term “controversial” or “controversy” is used, preferentially, to refer to the actual issue, which is the ritualized sexual abuse of minors. It’s no secret what Mr. Frost wrote. I’m not sure why both obits- which otherwise conform to basic reporting- omit or play down the details behind his “controversial” ideas.

    • Lailoken Scathach

      I’m confused. Is it what he wrote or what he did – those are two huge differences. It is one thing to elude in writing how to perform a sexual initiation and another to carry it out.

      My understanding is the mere writing of such a thing was so abhorrent in the Wicca community that it was immediately castigated. As to ever being carried out?

      I truly hope not.

      • Elizabeth Creely

        ” It is one thing to elude in writing how to perform a sexual initiation and another to carry it out”
        Is it?

        • Lailoken Scathach

          Yes.

          • Elizabeth Creely

            I think you mean “allude”.
            I do not know why someone would take the time to provide this sort of step by step detail without hoping someone would follow his instructions.
            in any case, I’m not sure he needed to have actually abused children to be rightfully called out for contributing to an atmosphere/environment in which children could be abused. The last three Popes and all their Cardinals (as far as I know) have never been accused of actually sexually abusing children. They just moved the priests around.

      • Erynn Rowan Laurie

        the part where he advocates the forced sexual initiation of pre-pubescent children by “strangers” is not “controversial.” it is the advocation of sexual abuse. it is absolutely disgusting and he deserves no defense.

        • Lailoken Scathach

          My only defense of him is asking if he ever carried it out not that he wrote it.

          But I guess the accusation is enough – burn him!!

          • Space Marine Lysana

            It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter. He advocated child rape. And you want to know if he ever committed the act before you’ll agree he was being vile? Drop that last name. You are not deserving of it.

          • Lailoken Scathach

            That’s rather convenient putting words in my mouth. By the same token of accusation we should condemn Aliester Crowley for advocating Human Sacrifice.

            I simply like to condemn those for the crimes they actually commit rather then going by what they write.

      • linguliformean

        This is an instruction on ‘how to do it’

        What context *should* it be taken in?

        https://web.archive.org/web/20130622124101/http://www.freewebs.com/controversialstudy/WB/ChapterIV.htm

    • gwendolynhbarry

      I was not agreeable to it, either. Many were not. Shouldn’t be imo.

    • Well, Peg Aloi, who wrote the Patheos piece, seems to have a thing for the sexual abuses of minors, as it was her and Christian Day who were throwing shit-fits over people condemning Kenny Klein’s child porn ring, saying those of us who don’t want pedos in our paganism were conducting some kind of “witch hunt”.

      She has consistently demonstrated that the feelings of the abusers (or those who advocate abuse –sane difference) are more important than the wellbeing of the targets of abuse, especially sexual abuse. I really can only imagine why people in the pagan community are still putting up with her.

      • PegAloi

        Oh, why don’t you do something useful with your life? Seriously. You seem to have nothing but free time to spew hatred and invective on the Wild Hunt and over at Patheos. Why not do something to help another human being? Get a life already. Your accusation and absolutely ridiculous and so over-the-top they’re not even worth responding to.
        As for why people in the pagan community “put up with me,” well, I, too, can only imagine…I suppose I should be burned at the stake or poisoned from a goblet or maybe just shot through a window…is that what you’re advocating?

        • Summer

          I don’t think burning or poisoning are called for. Maybe just embarrassment about your behavior in public fora…in front of the community you will inevitably try to sell some product to.

          • PegAloi

            Not embarrassed in the slightest. And what products do I sell?

          • Summer

            Oh dear, it is decidedly worse than I thought. She doesn’t know how she makes an income. Bless her heart.

          • PegAloi

            You’re acting like a 12 year old girl.

          • Summer

            Well, that comment certainly gives insights about your apologism.

          • You really find nothing embarrassing about defending several peddlers of child porn? (I really can’t think of any other rational way to describe the infamous Chapter IV).

        • Did I hit a nerve?

          • Summer

            Oh I hope not, Ruadhán. I don’t think she has that many left. And she still needs to look up “reprehensible” in the dictionary.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I find it curious that she is antagonistic to anyone asking for evidence or proof and combative with anyone who provides evidence counter to anything she may assert. Additionally making vague accusations of backpedaling when she herself was guilty of such (in re: censorship: to whit: my page and I’ll censor it if I wish)

          • Well, apparently standing up for child pornographers is hard work, and why must people vdo things that make it harder for her? She’s but ONE PERSON! What if the pagan community churns out more child pornographers? **Think of the overtime, and she’s only making salary!!**

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            That was funny! 🙂

          • Thank you. 🙂

          • PegAloi

            And you’re surprised your offers to “volunteer” for this website have been met with utter silence?

          • Since I understand that comments are integral to SEO, yes.

          • PegAloi

            Well done, people; you can’t burn Gavin anymore, cuz he’s dead. Glad you found someone else to harass. Get a life.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I have said nothing untoward about the man. I merely ask for evidence. The simple asking for evidence somehow equates with an attack to you. That’s how cult figures get away with atrocities, by silencing those who question them.

          • Have one, thanks.

            Shouldn’t you be out looking for more child pornographers to defend? After all, Yvonne can’t be fat behind him, and you’ll have no purpose, after that, unless you find another pedo.

          • PegAloi

            No. You’re just an annoying parasite.

  • Erynn Rowan Laurie

    child abuse is not “controversial” unless someone is defending it. this man deserves no memorials in our community.

    • Ray Romanowicz

      Indeed. The fact that TWH would tarnish itself with this post saddens me.

  • Maggie Fry

    Gavin Frost never endorsed “ritual sexual abuse of minors.” His book proposed a method to prepare young people who WANTED to participate in rituals involving sex. This really was a thing back in some covens in the 60s and 70s, and he was thinking in terms of children raised as part of those covens moving into adulthood. He was never accused or charged with sexual abuse. Unfortunately, being grossly misunderstood will probably be his lasting legacy.

    • Lailoken Scathach

      Finally a ray of sanity in a rather dark and dismal fog of confusion. Exactly, context is important.

      • Space Marine Lysana

        Sexually initiating minors is child rape. Encouraging child rape is inhumane and vile. No misunderstanding here. Both of you are rape apologists.

        • Lailoken Scathach

          Mountain meet mole hill, mole hill meet mountain.

        • Andrea Marie Ohern

          Have you actually been one of the Frost’s students? Did you READ the accounts written? I WAS. The way they were written, in context, was more as a sociologist would describe a tribal rite of passage than an advocacy of the practice. Would an antrhopologist be accused of advocating scarification practices if he or she wrote describing them? I never felt, during my time with the Frost’s school, that they advocated abusing children in ANY way. Accusations made have a tendency to run wild without actual confirmation. Hearsay is nothing but gossip with a more respectable name.

          • serafina

            They changed their tune AFTER they were castigated by the community. They did not merely describe the practices in the 70’s, they advocated it and suggested it as a good way to initiate girls as young as 14. And yes, I read it myself in their book many years ago. So did others.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Can you please provide links to the allegations? Documentation? I have tried to find actual accusations, yet all I can find are vague allusions to “I’ve heard stories”. I am genuinely interested, because from everything I’ve read, it seems more like popular pagan urban legend. I promise, I’m not being sarcastic.

    • serafina

      He advocated MINORS being raped with a dildo by their dads. A minor cannot give consent, and it’s a classic, classic child molestor’s rationalization to say the child “wanted” it. Maggie, how can a person possibly say that having a dildo inserted by their father moves them toward adulthood???

      • Andrea Marie Ohern

        I confess you have a valid point. Those that perpetrated the act are/were vile. I can only say that I interpreted the passages in question to be a historical descriptive of how it WAS done, rather than an instruction manual on how TO do it or and advocacy of it. I had my own ethical qualms surrounding the Frost’s school, unrelated to the issue at hand, which has little to add to this discussion for me to divulge, and eventually I parted ways with them peaceably. I’m not sure if I can attribute it to naivete on my part or what but that was my own takeaway from it. That it was a documentation rather than an instruction. Of course, interpretation and perception is very different for each person.

        • Rayna Templebee

          Andrea, if you think about what was being written by many Craft authors in the 80’s, it was common to portray something they had written as “historical.” Using history as a justification, source of legitimacy. I dont fault early Craft authors for being seduced by that easy “get.” I fault Gavin for never repudiating the sexual initiation rituals even though he given a million opportunities, even up to the last few years.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Yes, I myself, in my fledgling years as a young one in the Craft, fell prey to many of those writers. That is the very reason I demand evidence now.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Citation, notation, proof. These are not unreasonable nor unrealistic requests.

  • Summer

    I think it is important to keep in mind that his death is news, and it the job of The Wild Hunt to report on it. I dint think it’s right to call out the group for doing their job.

    That said, the Frost apologists on here are wrong. He endorsed the sexual initiation of legal minors. Anything stated to the contrary is either an injustice to the children and/or a perverted delusion about what they wrote in The Witches Bible, the very title being hubris – thinking they could construct and we capitulate to such a document or authority.

    • Elizabeth Creely

      To be sure: I agree that it’s news. At first. It sort of stops being that, and instead drops the conventions of news-writing when the writer backs away (as she seems to do) from providing details and instead talks vaguely of controversy.

      • Summer

        Yes, I do think a clear condemnation about what he wrote was warranted- I think that TWH could have spoken more forcefully about that.

        It seems that the Frosts have allies everywhere who want to stamp out negative comments. My own comments were just censored by Peg Aloi over on Patheos, because my raising concerns about what he wrote and her defense of the Frosts was too disagreeable for her.

        • kenofken

          If there had been any willingness to talk about the underlying issue with any openness and honesty from Gavin Frost or his allies, I don’t think he would have become so defined by it and I think we would be having a much different conversation about the man and his life’s work now.

        • Elizabeth Creely

          I agree. The level of defensiveness is astounding. What’s also interesting is how- lacking proof that he sexually abused children, but simply provided instructions on how to do so- hard it is to believe he transgressed.

          • Summer

            Yes, and he had many opportunities to recant/re-write.

        • Franklin_Evans

          On the specific point of TWH and their reporting: a thousand times no for any demand that they editorialize their reporting at any level. Indeed, that they provide comment sections on their articles should be both a clear statement that opinions should be aired, and that they are journalists.

          Think about the general criticism of Fox News. They started out making it about them, about their reporters and talking heads, and they proved that there is media bias regardless of it being liberal or conservative.

          I respect and admire TWH for being a true journalistic source. Respectfully, Summer, what you and others are doing is implying that the messenger should be shot for reporting bad news.

          • Yeah, but they have comments automatically closed after two days — and have at times manually shut down comments after only a few hours. Given this is the largest independent platform for pagans, etc…, to have a voice, their message is clear that they only want to give the illusion of open dialogue, and victims have no say.

          • Franklin_Evans

            A reasonable point with which I can agree. I often get frustrated that comment sections are closed so quickly, as I’m not in the habit of checking TWH daily.

            However, given that I also have inside experience with managing comment sections (at Beliefnet) and bbs type sites, I would caution against leaping to “want to give the illusion” assumptions. The available services and functions of a small, independent (and advertisement-free) website are directly proportional to how much money they have to pay for them.

          • DisqUs is a free service.

          • Franklin_Evans

            It’s only function is spam prevention. You have to pay people to read comments before approving them for posting.

          • And? TWH employees whitelist new commenters all the time.

          • Franklin_Evans

            Volunteer to manage, for free, the comments section of TWH. Stick with it for at least a month. If you find no reason to change your assumptions here, I will yield the point, but not before.

          • I’d volunteered my time to TWH *so many* times, but it’s clear they don’t want it.

          • PegAloi

            Maybe they’re tired of people like you constantly posting on any and all topics even remotely scented with a whiff of scandal. Your bloviating verbiage is all over the Wild Hont comments pages and all over Pathos too. All that energy you put into writing on here, why don’t you use it for something useful? Why not write a book?

          • I’ve written several. And music. You jelly?

          • PegAloi

            OMG you have got to be kidding me. Links? I really wanna read them. No, really.

          • A search engine is your friend, dear.

          • Elizabeth Creely

            Um, nope. The conventions of newswriting- the classic combo of who-what-were-when and why- aren’t followed here in this obit and they should have been, AND they allow the writer ample room to convey specific detail- the “why” and the “what”- without indulging in libel.
            This passage is an example: “Beyond the personal, Gavin, along with Yvonne, were continually at the center of public controversy…” etc.
            Had this obit appeared in, say, the Guardian, that sentence, and indeed most of the obit-would have disclosed the substance of the allegations against the Frost’s and their (repellent, IMHO) teachings.
            The obit as written trends more towards “editorializing” by the reluctance to state what the controversy was.

          • Exactly — but, you know, anything but glowing accolades of anyone who can make enough friends and stick around long enough to be an “elder” in enough people’s minds is going to be read as “trying to destroy paganism” ’round these parts.

          • Franklin_Evans

            I depend very heavily on the people I’ve encountered along the way. One such was a senior reporter and bureau supervisor for a local daily (long since defunct, alas), whose children were my friends, and who was very generous with his time for a young teenager’s often dumb questions. I grew up listening very carefully to broadcast news — my mother never missed the 7pm network broadcast on CBS with Walter Cronkite — later took public speaking courses and worked on my college FM radio station.

            That was all 40 or more years ago. Journalism hasn’t just changed, it has become well nigh unrecognizable to my 20-20 hindsight vision.

            Yes, as an obit this TWH piece is lacking. Indeed, TWH is no more off-the-hook for phrasing and rhetorical choices that speak to its audience’s bias than any other news service. My defense of them is simple: in our microcosm of interests and critical topical views, they do a better job of journalism than many major outlets I could name, not even getting to Fox News until well down the list. They hold as well as they can (given many caveats) to journalistic standards and ethics which I believe are still there, still important. They do that and more with a budget of infinitesimal comparison to those other outlets, and I consider that heroic.

          • Summer

            Franklin, I want to be clear that I think the Wild Hunt did a good job – as they always do – reporting news about our community. And so, I do agree with you. If you notice from my initial statement. I do not think it is correct to shoot the Wild hunt (as it were).

          • Franklin_Evans

            I’d have to be blind to the passion around this subject to take personal offense here, to you or anyone else. Your courtesy is gratefully accepted, and I assure you no apology is needed.

        • Peg Aloi (along with Christian Day) also stood up for established child pornographer Kenny Klein. She seems to have a thing for the sexual abuses of minors.

          • PegAloi

            Yes, you’ve found me out. I am a pedophile and a rape apologist. Also a Catholic. And a Republican. Also vegan.

          • The first step is admitting you have a problem.

        • PegAloi

          I didn’t censor you, drama queen. I was tired of reading your overblown commentary. My piece was a notification of Gavin;s death and a brief personal tribute to him. For people like you to use it as an excuse to jump on your soapbox is really reprehensible.

          • Summer

            I believe that is a hate statement-such exceptional elegance, Peg Aloi- I assume this is how you make lots of friends. By the way, I took a screenshot expecting that you would crawl into such statement about it not being censorship. Since you didn’t know what “ad hominem” is you may want to look up the word “censorship” – and I’ll be happy to post the screen shot of your blog and my Disqus account showing your deletion.

          • Summer

            Oh dear, Peg Aloi – I guess I might have to define “reprehensible” for you. First start in the Witch’s Bible and at how they suggest children be initiated. Then go to Oxford English Dictionary for the actually word. Both, by the way, are books. Given you write and have an MFA, one assumes you know what those are. Then do your very, very, very best to compare the suggested “initiation” to the word “reprehensible.”

          • PegAloi

            What is your problem? You act like I did something illegal or am trying to hide something. It’s my blog, I moderate the comments, and if I don’t want your tiresome pedantic bullshit on my thread, then I’ll delete your ass. Nuff said.

          • Summer

            Oh no! Now you think you’re the victim. Well, moderation doesn’t mean deleting comments that you don’t like. That’s still censorship (we haven’t visited the dictionary, have we?) And pouting, or even the words “Nuff said” (an impressive use of your literary skill, by the way) doesn’t mean others must heed your demand.

          • PegAloi

            That is exactly what moderation means. You keep telling to look at a dictionary. Why is that? And you keep filling up this comment space with childish nonsense.

          • Summer

            Childish? Have you now started planning my rape initiation?

          • Victims need a voice. It’s morally derelict that you find the feelings of the victimisers more important than giving voice to the victims.

          • PegAloi

            WHAT VICTIMS?

  • Andrea Marie Ohern

    It’s amazing. We call ourselves balanced, yet dismiss anything the man did completely out of hand on the basis of ACCUSATIONS. What a fine bunch of proto-christians we must sound like. Did he write about those things? yes. was it horrible? yes. was that the sum and total of his contributions? most definitely NOT. I was a member of the Church and School correspondence course. I parted ways over my own ethical qualms, but I also give credit where credit is due. The education gave me a solid foundation which my critical thinking allowed me to take the positive, reject the negative, and move forward. I’ve been over 35 years in the Craft. I can only say that anyone who had qualms with the writings, like myself, were smart enough to reject the teachings they didn’t agree with and peaceably disassociate. He was human. He made mistakes. He also made great contributions. Stop burning our own at the stake.

    • PegAloi

      You posted this kind of thing 2 days ago but you changed your tune very quickly. You’re the worst sort of person. Allowing the loudest asshole in the room to sway your opinion.

      • Andrea Marie Ohern

        Ms. Aloi. Go your way. I find your personality distasteful, brash, and utterly vulgar. I have been told that you fancy yourself to be of some importance. If so, I must be quite important to warrant your attention in this matter

        • PegAloi

          Just taking part in the conversation which seems, oddly, to be about me in the last 24 hours. Because, ya know, Gavin is dead and can’t actually read what you’re saying about him. But good on ya for finding someone else to bully so quickly! It’s like you know what you’re doing.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            You start a quarrel with me and then claim I’m bullying you. Classic martyr complex. Tell me, why are you such a small, angry person?

  • kenofken

    Gavin Frost does deserve credit where it is due. 86 years is a long life and legacy, and he did a good bit to lay the foundations for today’s movement by pioneering legal recognition for Pagan groups and making the Craft more accessible. That said, any honest account of his legacy cannot gloss over the troubling aspects of his work, and those aspects are troubling even in (perhaps especially) “in context” as his apologist call it.

    The problem is NOT that he personally sexually abused anyone. There have never been any public allegations to that effect, and it has not been at issue in any of serious debates about his work I have seen over the past decade. The problem is A) What he wrote and B) Even more, how he refused to clarify and engage with what he wrote in the light of modern understandings of child sex abuse and C) Worst of all, his and his supporters haughty dismissal of legitimate concerns as being a “witch hunt” or some sort of spasm of reactionary Christian prudery among the rest of today’s Pagan movement. I believe it is that last factor which brought the most toxicity to Frost’s legacy, and the blame for that lies solely with him and those who choose to apologize for him.

    Did Frost “advocate” ritualized child abuse? He portrayed it in a way which made it seem to be authentic and historical to Wicca, something healthy and something which naturally arises from the Craft’s legitimate sex-positive ideals. That may or may not have been an inconceivable and unforgivable proposition in the context of 1972 America. I was there, but just barely walking. In any case, it is indefensible in the light of what we know about sexual abuse of minors today. Sexual involvements between adults and minors is not OK if the minor seems to want it. It’s not OK as part of a young woman’s rite of passage in a supportive community. It’s not OK as part of our “all acts of love and pleasure” ethic.

    This is not one of those issues like recon vs eclectic or metaphysical theory where we can all just agree to disagree and respect “diversity of opinion.” Underage sexual abuse destroys its victims and it destroys organizations and movements which foster cultures of abuse. Getting this one issue wrong broke the back of the Catholic Church in the West within one generation, and they had the advantages of enormous wealth and cultural dominance. How do you think we’d come out of a scandal like that? Like a mosquito hit by a 747 I’m guessing. Now it’s true that the Catholic Church had a whole lot more wrong with it than one controversial author. It’s also true that its problems began with lax attitudes toward proper adult-child boundaries and a culture which made excuses for its leaders and which fobbed off normal demands for accountability and transparency as “witch hunts.”

    Gavin Frost was not the Worst Man in Wicca. But his legacy is deeply problematic and he was not a force for progress on one key issue where we most need it. Those who cannot see that or refuse to see it have no place as current or future elders of our traditions.

  • I do not advocate sex with children.

    We should remember that the extended childhood thing in America is post WWII, and even now doesn’t necessarily apply everywhere. My maternal grandmother married as a teenager in Louisiana. I went to high school with Diné girls who became pregnant, sometimes more than once.

    Sexual mores change and are not universal.

    • Robert Mathiesen

      One of my great-great-grandmothers, back in the 1830s, in frontier days in Joliet, Illinois, set her cap for a man in his 30s when she was 13. The local girls regarded him as the catch of the year, or so she always said. Anyway, she beat the other girls out and married when she was 14. By her own account, she had a very happy, long and rewarding marriage with him, and produced eight children, four of whom survived to adulthood. She always thought she did well for herself by marrying him, She was the daughter of the Will Co. sheriff; he was the first lawyer and banker in Joliet, becaume the first State’s Attorney for Will Co., and eventually an influential Senator in the Illnois Legislature. If you had told her that her marriage was a mistake, or even a crime, she would have said that she knew very well where her own best interests lay, and that time had proven her right. If you had insisted, she might well have taken a shotgun to you. — As a frontier girl in the 1830s, in an age of small farms, she was no sheltered child, but would have had a pretty realistic idea by age 14 what happened in any young woman’s marriage bed, or in childbed thereafter. — My point here is that you can’t impose present-day ethics and morality, much less law, on past ages and different cultures.

      • Robert Mathiesen

        PS Just to be clear, I’m not defending Gavin Frost. I didn’t know the man, and I never got around to reading his book. Rather, I’m challenging the efforts I see here to insist that one’s own morality and ethics on ages are, or ought to be, valid for all places, times and cultures.

        • serafina

          We’re talking rape of a child with a dildo, by the FATHER. This goes way beyond superimposing modern ethics and morality on a different time period.

      • kenofken

        None of this has to do with imposing present-day ethics on past ages. All of the controversy involves events well post-WW II, and the 1830s have no more relevance to the topic at hand than the early Iron Age. Frost’s book at the center of the stink came out in 1972, and that isn’t even really at the crux of the problem where many of us are concerned. We’re not judging him and his work in 1972 by 2016 standards. The problem is how he engaged or failed to engage the issue responsibly in recent years with recent understandings of child abuse.

        • Robert Mathiesen

          Some of the commenters spoke in absolute terms, as if there are at least a few things that are never right under any circumstances, in any age or culture, period. That is what I am challenging here. There are no absolutes, even in morality or ethics, under all circumstances in all cultures. Not one. Ever. And, by the way, there is no such thing as moral or ethical progress toward a better world, or a more just one. Every time we adjust one thing in our culture closer to how we want it, other things go out of adjustment elsewhere in our culture.

        • And just as importantly as the date of publication is the fact that he seems to’d been the only person writing on witchcraft in either a current or an historical context to’ve uncovered such a ritual. This really brings his ethics into question, especially when, over the last couple decades, he decided to claim that it was somehow only intended as a historical piece. What malarkey!

          • serafina

            He was a master of rationalization, no?

  • Elenei

    wasn’t the man a pedophile that used wiccan rituals to molest children?

    • Chas S. Clifton

      Absolutely not. The “great dildo controversy” was hypothetical, sort of “How might a more sexually open society operate?”

      It’s sort of like how Robert Heinlein speculated about “line marriages” and “nests” in such novels as THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS and STRANGER IN A STRANGE WORLD. He didn’t actually live that way, and he was sort of amused when the Church of All Worlds picked up the “nest” thing.

      If you ask his own daughter (and I know her slightly) if it was done with her, the answer is an emphatic no.

      • linguliformean

        It doesn’t really read that way though; mother’s taking daughters to get their hymen surgical broken, mothers cutting the membrane of their son’s foreskin, fathers assisting their daughters with wooden dildo use. This isn’t just about a more permissive attitude to sex.

        This is talking about barely pubescent minors engaging in activities with their parents and ‘strangers’ in a way that minors below the age of 13 probably really shouldn’t be doing.

        On top of that, none of this is anything to do with Wicca.

        • Elizabeth Creely

          Yeah. It’s a hugely prescriptive passage. Someone has suggested that he was taking a “anthropological” view. Anthropology describes, it does not prescribe. This is not anthropology. This is flat-out recommendation.

          It’s so interesting, too that folks are clinging to the “can you prove he DID what he suggests others do?” That’s really beside the point. Our legal system has a long established remedy for people likehim or like Charles Manson who never actually killed anyone. Under criminal law, Frost’s charge would be classified as an “inchoate offense” and he well could have been found guilty of conspiracy.

          Had the prelates of the Catholic Church in America been less well-protected, they, too, could easily have been found guilty of conspiracy. Cardinal Bernard Law “orchestrated secret settlements for abuse claims made against at least
          seventy of his priests, in which families were paid to stay silent about
          the molestation and rape of their children.”

      • Curious how only his buddies seem to be the ones who’ve ever made those statements of his child porn publicly….

  • Chas S. Clifton

    If you read the article, you saw that Gavin was trained in mathematics, physics, and also engineering. When it came to magic, he was not one of these “what the ancestors did” or “what the Lore says,” type of practitioners. He was always experimenting. He would say, “Turn off the electrical power in your house and see if your ritual is more effective,” stuff like that. Feedback from students was incorporated into future lessons.

    Like many practitioners before them, he and Yvonne were both interested in the relationships between sexual energy, magical energy, psychic energy — all of that. They wrote both in lessons and in fiction speculating about how a change in sexual practice, for instance, might make for more effective magical practice. People have been thinking about such things for a very long time.

    • Summer

      I was trained in unicorn anatomy and gnomish design. And my PhD is top secret too, especially with the power off. I assume you’ll just take my word for that.

      • Well, if you say it happened before the Internet was in common use, then I guess he’d have to!

        • Summer

          Yes, many years ago when I was a fetus, before the internet. And paper.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            oh yes, and before ink that lasted beyond the birth experience, too? 🙂

  • Independent research and fact-checking has shown that Frost is not listed in any alumni records of the colleges he claimed. His doctorate dissertations cannot be found in the libraries of the colleges he claims to have attended. When asked about this, he avoided giving straightforward answers.

    Occham’s Razer would suggest that his doctorates are therefore completely self-appointed.

    • Chas S. Clifton

      Your use of the passive voice is . . . interesting. Please share some URLs with us. 🙂

      • PegAloi

        Yeah; who, exactly, did this “independent research and fact checking”–not you,obviously. When would you have time? You obviously spend way too much time posting in pagan social media.

        • Andrea Marie Ohern

          The excellent point, Ms. Aloi, was that proof of the claimed qualifications had not been presented. And it is indeed valid. Unverified claims are a valid concern

          • Chas S. Clifton

            Is he supposed to post his c.v. somewhere?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Yes, actually. If someone makes claims of achievement or credentials, they are expected to provide supporting documentation

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I only ask if someone makes a claim that they provide proof of veracity. If something is being stated as hearsay, say it is such, if it is opinion, say so. Making a statement as a fact without proof is irresponsible

          • PegAloi

            Lemme get this straight. So you think everyone making a factual statement needs to back it up with some form of proof (like a document of some kind) before it’s even asked for. Do you even know how ridiculous this sounds?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            it is only unreasonable or ridiculous to someone who cannot provide said requested proof. There are two possible reasons such proof would not be forthcoming. 1) The individual heard the statement somewhere and didn’t verify it, i.e. hearsay. (in other words they have no proof) or 2) they are intentionally deceiving people

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I haven’t refuted anything as of yet, and where I have been shown to be in error, I have promptly accepted correction. I do not refute. I question. If questions make you uncomfortable, and apparently hostile, perhaps you should ask yourself why?

          • When it’s a statement of fact that has an easy proof for one to procure, then no, it’s not ridiculous at all.

          • Exactly — Carl Sagan’s truism about extraordinary claims is just as valid for academic qualifications as it is for alien contact.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            intellectual honest requires healthy skepticism. Healthy skepticism is asking for credible evidence, and being willing to alter one’s position, despite possible loss of prestige, in relation to new information. It’s standard Intro To Logic and Critical Thinking. One would think that someone who allegedly has an MFA would remember that.

          • Well, you forget one critical factor:
            Pulling the wool over one’s own eyes with regards to one’s dead friend is far more important to maintaining a long-held fantasy than logic and critical thinking.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            This is what I am starting to suspect, indeed

          • Summer

            A Demon-Haunted World, complete with real demons.

          • Since that’s how burden of proof works, yes, that’s exactly what’s expected.

          • PegAloi

            “unverified claims are a valid concern.” You can actually type this with a straight face, after buying into all the rumor-mongering and moralistic claptrap in this thread? SMH

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            yes, if I have not taken part in such. I ask for proof, from everyone. I do not subscribe to group think, mob mentality, or ‘because I say so’.

          • Summer

            Andrea this is madness! We should have bowed down hours ago… And Peg Aloi even used an acronym!

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Levity in the heat of a dispute is always welcome! 🙂

          • Yes, the fact that Gavin Frost never verified his claims that his doctorates were anything but self-awarded *is* a valid concern. Especially as people had asked him to prove it, repeatedly, for years. I mean, as an easy example, his dissertation just plain doesn’t exist, but when asked for something as simple as its title and what uni he wrote it for, he gives a hand-wave and fools like yourself buy it.

          • PegAloi

            what people asked him to prove it, and when? More hearsay bullshit from you.

        • Actually, I spend most of my time studying philosophy and making art and music.

      • Summer

        I’m sure this will be shocking to the irrational apologists, but there is something called Dissertation Abstracts. And – oh no! – it lists all dissertations for the past 150 years from everywhere in the world. Go on and guess who’s not in it? Did you guess yet?

        • Franklin_Evans

          Some assumptions seem safe, but knowing that some important items of possibly wide interest appear no where on the Internet — some quite within its lifetime — should give us pause before proclaiming that a thing cannot exist if it’s not cited on some website.

          Would someone posting pdfs of their dissertation, it not appearing on that website, be enough to at least offer a small benefit of the doubt here?

          Of all the forms of “proof”, negative proof — it can’t be seen, therefore it must not exist — is the one that keeps me up at night sometimes. Shrug.

    • Andrea Marie Ohern

      Excellent, and valid, point

      • PegAloi

        How is it a valid point when it’s not even substantiated???? Jesus fuck, no wonder paganism is famous for charismatic cult leaders; some people will believe anything.

        • Andrea Marie Ohern

          The excellent point was that any qualifications quoted have been offered without a shred of evidence. I could SAY that I’ve done any number of things, but unless proof is offered… well, those claims would be questionable, correct?

          • …well, they’d only be questionable unless you’re a friend of Ms Aloi’s who produces child porn. If you meet those two qualifications, anything you say must be golden!

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Fortunately, I’m not given to the habit of making claims concerning my credentials, or qualifications. Regardless of whether I can substantiate them. I find shameless self promotion to be tawdry, distasteful, and arrogant

        • Andrea Marie Ohern

          When someone claims the existence of a thing, the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence. Thus, the absence of proof of the qualifications is indeed a valid point

          • Chas S. Clifton

            Gavin’s career in the aerospace industry took place in the 1950s and early 1960s. There was no Internet then, but perhaps if you write to his widow at the Church of Wicca address, she could find an old copy of his résumé and reproduce it for you. Would that help?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I’m not the one repudiating his claims, I merely said that the point was valid.

          • PegAloi

            Again and again and again you said this. Yet when Chas points out how absurd you’re being, you backpedal. Interesting.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            wherein have I backpedaled? I ask for proof. If you expect to be considered credible, you must be forthcoming with proof

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            I seem to be one of the few who has not yielded to the emotions in this discussion. Emotions cloud judgment, Hope clouds observation. I have not resorted to attempting to embarrass, intimidate or insults, nor have I resorted to profanity nor vulgarity. I neither defend nor condemn. I question

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            if you feel I’m being absurd, is it because you cannot provide said proof?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            forgive me if I do not blindly accept yours, or anyone else’s statements for that matter, as definitive and ultimate truth, or dare to question authority or credibility. Not asking questions, blind faith, I had enough of that in the Southern Baptist church, thank you. I have tried to remain civil and pleasant while you have chosen to resort to derision, insults and profanity. So, who is being absurd or unreasonable, here, Ms. Aloi? I have no quarrel with you. Go your way in peace.

          • PegAloi

            What the fuck is wrong with profanity? As for derision and insults, you’ve engaged in plenty of smack talk yourself. And you claim you’ve never even heard of Gavin Frost before he died? So why are you even engaging here? Nothing better to do?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Precisely WHERE did I claim not to have heard of him? And where have I “smack talked” him?? You are delusional

          • Summer

            Backpedal. Are you sure you know what that means, Peg Aloi?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            the woman who has, herself, backpedaled on censoring her comments section on her own blog? Doublespeak is fluently spoken in her circles, I presume

          • Summer

            Let me take the arrow for you, Andrea! You risk another acronym! She moderated.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            moderating involves preventing or intervening in online bullying, aggression, outright slander and insults… you know, the same things she freely indulges in here?

          • …yes, a copy of the resume he beefed up with shit he never thought it through to back up. Excellent plan! People went to the universities for proof, found none, so his co-conspirator and co-author of “how to rape a drunken teen and call it religion” manual you seem to think is little more than a “dildo controversy”, *must have the answers!*

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Fortunately, the majority of higher educational institutions have something known as ‘archives’… the vast majority of which got transferred to microfiche in the seventies, which got digitized in the early 2000s…

        • Charismatic cult leaders.. like Gavin Frost?

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            Strange, I can pull up bills of lading from cargo ships in the 1800s on the Internet, but PhDs from the fifties? we can’t pull that off, not with this equipment

          • …maybe, if only we were living that Steampunk vision of the future.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            hahahahahahahahahaha… but truly, on any genealogical site you can pull up digitized bills of lading, rolls of soldiers from the Civil war. Multiple minutiae of history, but something as significant as an aerospace PhD is not available? Does anyone else not find that… at least odd? Are there no news articles about the commencement exercises? no mention of his achievements in scientific papers? NOTHING? He made ZERO verifiable impact on the scientific community, yet worked on ‘top secret’ projects?

          • Yeah, that’s what I find odd, as well. Even more peculiar, is that we’ve got Chas, a career academic, telling people to go to the source of the statement to verify the statement — that’s equivalent of reading a passage on Wikipedia with a “[citation needed]” following, and assuming that’s as far back as one needs to verify the facts.

          • Andrea Marie Ohern

            now, to be clear, I am not claiming the man was a fraud. I’m asking for PROOF. nothing more. nothing less. Give me evidence.

    • kenofken

      This is an interesting side issue. I don’t think it has so much direct bearing on the issue of his controversial Craft writing, but it certainly can be a measure of a person’s basic honesty and degree of ego. I’ve only had time to poke around at researching it an hour or so this evening, but it is curious that I’ve drawn nothing but blanks in my searches on his doctoral work. King’s College Library searches turn up nothing in the way of a dissertation by Gavin Frost. I’ve never seen a firm date published as to when he was supposed to have earned that degree. I would guess sometime in the later 50s or early 60s. It’s true that older, pre-electronic works are often not as easily available or cataloged, but I did find listings of other people’s theses as far back as 1940 at King’s. On a blogspot page apparently owned by the Frosts, Gavin answered a question about his degrees rather obliquely: ” I gained my Phd credentials when working for the british department of atomic energy, the dissertation is still top secret.”

      Hmmmm……that may be true or it may be truly convenient. I don’t think it’s standard practice for a government department to grant academic degrees or for universities to award doctorates based on work which nobody outside of the defense establishment can read, use or critique. Maybe the department treated him as the functional equivalent of a Ph.D. for program access or pay grade. I don’t know. His academic claims are certainly not readily verifiable, but that doesn’t establish them as fraudulent claims either. It’s fair grist for historians and biographers for sure. If he did jazz up or outright fabricate some credentials, he wouldn’t be the first in the movement to do so. Gerald Gardner, who had barely any formal education at all, bought himself a doctoral degree from some hinky mail-order degree mill.

      • Andrea Marie Ohern

        I appreciate your candor, honesty, and erudite replies. They genuinely add to the discussion, rather than allowing it to devolve into an insult-and-profanity-laden high-tech equivalent of a pub argument

      • Thanks for getting to that while I was out and busy doing things that Peg seems to think don’t happen, cos she doesn’t see them.

        …funny how she doesn’t need to see anything of the Frosts’ claims to their own lives for her to accept it as true. My guess is that it’s because she, like many advocates of the “shades of grey” fallacy of knowledge, really only sees the world in terms of black-and-white (the “shades of grey” li(n)e is simply an intellectual slight-of-hand to make the black-and-white paradigm seem more palatable). She’s decided the Frosts are “good people” and I’m “bad people”, and there’s practically nothing anyone can say, regardless of the evidence brought in that contradicts her ideas, that can change her mind, because she’s made it up, and that’s that. She’s welcome to be wrong, but anyone else is also welcome to make a case of how and why she’s wrong, as well.

        • Andrea Marie Ohern

          I can only offer conjecture, here, but a possible explanation would lie in whether or not said experiences happened to her personally. As a young woman, star-struck by the pagan elite, so to speak, (again, this is mere conjecture, postulation, if you will) hero worship blinded her to accept any notion that the superstars may have black holes living in them. To do so would crush any delusions of childhood innocence. I do not know. Frankly, I’ve never heard of the woman until she attacked me from out of left field, for no other reason than I dared to ask for evidence. Sometimes, the emperor’s new clothes truly AREN’T there.

          • There’s probably some element of truth to your guess.

          • PegAloi

            wow, keep ’em coming, people, this shit is gold.

      • linguliformean

        He simply cant have gained a PhD in that way in the UK. It isn’t how things work over here.

  • Stephanie L Cutrere

    GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD RUBBISH!

  • Heather Greene

    The comments for this article are now closed as per our normal schedule. To clarify the policy, comment areas on all Wild Hunt articles close after 48 hours. We welcome open community discussion for that period of time. However, beyond that 2 day period, we do not have the time and resources to monitor the comments any further. Additionally, it is only on very rare and extreme occasions that the comment forum must be shut down manually.