Satanic invocation summons protests

39 thoughts on “Satanic invocation summons protests”

1. While I always approved of the message TST has sought to deliver, I’m not the biggest fan of their methods. They dress up like low-budget fantasy movie villains, and say prayers to Lucifer, then get surprised when Christians object. It just looks childish. If you want to spread the idea of religious freedom, perhaps you should educate people about your beliefs, or lack there of, instead of presenting yourself as a worshiper of a dark, malevolent force.

   • I do tend to find them a tad sensational but… aren’t the robes, hats, and veils of other religions not exactly streetwear for most modern Americans?

   • Of course it’s silly and amateurish street theater, but TST goes with the method because it always works. It’s sort of a sad commentary on the Christian extremists who fall for it every time, because it’s such a transparent game, but then fundamentalists of any stripe never were known for mental acuity. If they didn’t respond with such histrionics every time and simply did what the law demanded, they would probably never see another Satanic invocation again. So long as they continue to spit in the eye of equal access laws, and so long as they leave their chain of hysteria dangling in the breeze, the Satanists, may the Dark Lord keep them, will continue to yank it.

   • And what is it you think they should do instead?

     • 1: Stop acting so damn edgy. All the satanic stuff isn’t necessary, it just makes everyone look like an angsty teen,
       2: Instead of constantly poking the fundamentalist bear with a stick, we should be explaining that pagans, polytheists, and witches do not worship the devil, and teach them about our beliefs.

       • Yeah, ’cause that has worked so damn well for the past 2000 years, right? Get real.

         • Yea you’re right let’s pick up our axes and go kill some of them.

           It’s 2016. People are a little more civilized now. It’s time to bury the hatchet and make leaves

         • *peace

         • no justice, no peace.

         • “people are a little more civilized now”……… Really? Exactly which planet are you living on? Crystal lighting is great if you are white, male and middleclass, otherwise, not so much. Sorry, I’m a crone and when required I get right into someone’s face if it is called for. That is how the Maetreum won equal rights for Pagan churches under the law when those like you told us to give up, move and hide in the shadows. Go hide in your broom closet while us big bad disabled old crones fight for you………

         • Ah, the age old “ur just privileged!!!” privilege argument, classic. You don’t know my gender, sexuality, race, or economic position, but since I’m disagreeing with you I must be the evil white man in the golden suburbs, I’m not saying stop fighting for equality I’m saying stop dressing up like fantasy movie characters and making a damn fool of yourself.

       • You’re funny.

         2 has never, ever worked on the people we’re talking about here. Also, there are real people, including pagans and witches, who DO worship the devils, so you’re kind of being an ass there. What TST has been doing, on the other hand, has actually had some success. Some towns have actually stopped having invocations because of them.

         • If you’re a “pagan” or worships the devil, you’re just inverting Christianity, so I don’t see how you could be pagan.

         • *who

2. “Suhor said that he still identifies as Pagan despite having joined The Satanic Temple (TST), and doesn’t find anything contradictory about that fact.”

   Of course not: the Satanic Temple is Potemkin village erected for the sole purpose of trolling Christians. I mean, asking a Pagan if there’s anything contradictory about being a member of the Satanic Temple is like asking a sandwich if there’s anything contradictory about it filling a paper bag.

   • But is “trolling” Christians the best way to coexist?

     • Coexistence is a red herring. It’s just another way of saying, “Let’s all ignore the fact that Christians think their Sky Daddy should lock disobedient children in a hot, dirty basement and not let them out again ever.” It’s one thing to be civil and respect another’s privilege under law to be religious according to their conscience, but it’s another thing entirely to say that I have to coexist with people who literally every Sunday (and sometimes more often) pray to their imaginary friend that I die a terrible death. They’re welcome to exercise their liberties under law, but I don’t have to coexist with people who’d sooner take away my children than “coexist” with me.

       • But there are Christians who support our First Amendment rights even if they don’t agree with us theologically. TST’s methods risk offending them gratuitously.That being said, there are circumstances in which they are “asking for it.” For example, a Ten Commandments monument on a courthouse law, or passing out Gideon bibles in a public school. IMHO a public-body public prayer is a form of “asking for it” because it obtrudes the rituals of the already privileged majority religion into a public space that, if not shared with others, reinforces an already existing privilege. That’s how I look at most of these affairs: Does the action privilege further the already privileged?

         • See, here’s where I disagree: the Satanic Temple presumably wants to get prayer out of all government meetings, but you don’t get religion out of government meetings by inserting religion into government meetings. They’ve had some victories here and there, but on the whole the trend certainly appears to be that Christians will accept a minority of non-Christian prayers so long as they get to keep the majority of all prayers told. In effect, the Satanic Temple is giving Christians an opportunity to say, “See? We’re being inclusive, so that means we can keep giving our prayers at 9.99 out of 10 meetings.” There are plenty of civil rights groups doing a great job of getting religion out of government meetings without inserting more religion into government meetings.

         • I don’t have any stats on exact results but I know that some places have dropped prayers rather than put up with us. I know the courthouse Ten Commandments monument was removed rather that coexist with that delightful TST statue of Baphomet. I would never turn TST loose on a situation like in Akron OH where the Orthodox Christians walked from an interfaith group rather than sit down with Pagans — because the rest of them stayed.I haven’t heard of any instances where obtrusive prayer was removed by other means, but more power to the civil rights groups doing it.

         • And other places (I’ve lived in one of them) have openly embraced diversity and put actual ordained Pagan clergy (as opposed to someone who is a “third degree priestess in XXX”) into the rotation for things like city council meetings. Clergy are serious, theologically trained people who dedicate a large part of their lives to serving the public good as well as their congregations. People who are not actively clergy should not, in my opinion, be invited to give prayers.

         • A restriction like that privileges the already privileged.

         • A blanket ban on prayers at government would by far be the simplest and cleanest way to approach the issue, but no court that I am aware of has been willing to demand that approach. They typically say prayers can be said so long as they are open to all. With that reality to work with the only alternative is to truly hold them to that, and Satanist seem to be the ultimate test of Christian tolerance.

     • It’s one of the best ways to drive home what freedom of religion in a plural secular democracy really means.

   • I have to disagree. I am Pagan, a member of an organized congregation – and absolutely horrified. He is NOT a Pagan, he says himself that he is agnostic. Just as he would not be Christian but from a Christian background if he were agnostic and said he were Christian. If he wants to fight prayer in public places, then the Freedom from Religion Foundation or the ACLU or a number of other places do that without harming others.

     Satanism, by its nature acknowledges that monotheistic Abrahamic faiths are correct, as Satan is part of their myth set and not of any preexisting pagan wisdom tradition. Paganism does not make such an acknowledgement. It is common decency to actually represent your own real views, not claim another group as sort of a shield while publicly saying that you do not share their beliefs.

     Regards.

     • Actually, Satanism is an atheist religion and doesn’t worship a literal deity, but instead regards Satan as a metaphor for carnal existence, self pride, discipline, individual power, and human-as-animal. Mr. Suhor is welcome to identify himself however he likes, but going by what the Church of Satan has been saying for over 50 years, he’s not even a Satanist. Not that I particularly care what he calls himself – that’s his business – but since you give me the impression that you’re talking about me, there it is.

       • Bovine defecation.

         I don’t care if Satanists claim to be theist or atheist. It has no relevance. Invoke the name of one of the gods of the Islamo-Christian pantheon and you are the enemy. They’re still giving aid and comfort to the enemy of humanity and all REAL Pagans.

         They’re no different than the anal canals who prance around in Nazi uniforms and claim to be successors to the Third Reich. There may not be a direct connection but they disrespect and degrade the memory those who were their victims. No are no different.

         If the Islamo-Christians ever start anything to threaten the existence of Pagans, Satanists shouldn’t expect to be viewed or treated any different than they will be.

         Ask any WW2 combat veteran, they’ll tell you. They shot at the uniform and the helmet. Satanists wear the same uniform and helmet as the Islamo-Christians and willing choose to put it on.

     • Satan is part of [the Abrahamic] myth set and not of any preexisting pagan wisdom traditionHow do we know that? It’s commonplace for religions to take over deities of enemies or conquered peoples as demons or subordinate deities. The serpent in Genesis or the insubordinate son of God in Job could well be deities of rival peoples whose stories in their own words did not make it down to the present, and we are left with the caricatures of their enemies.

3. All or none. The council chose some, not even all, since they can still discriminate. The chose poorly.

4. I love reading about him and what he’s been up to 🙂

5. Sometimes good theater is the way to go. I think this puts the problem right out in the open, and the Christian over action helps as well. I have a lot of respect for the Satanists and their satire of religion.

6. I like what they are doing but it’s sad they are the only group willing to put themselves out there.

7. To be a Satanist, as far as I’m concerned, you first have to be Christian or Muslim. The arguments that Satan predates Abrahamic religions are specious. The only way you can include Pagan deities into the Satan “avatar” is through the actions of the Abrahamic faiths. By giving a “Satanic invocation” you tacitly acknowledge Christianity (or Islam) as being real and accurate, as Satan is part of their myth set – and does not predate that myth set in any other religions. Further, in Judaism (feel free to ask a rabbi) Satan is viewed as an advocate (lawyer) whose DUTY and JOB is to oppose “G-d” so it is NOT the same view that later Abrahamic faiths have of “him.”

   Paganism is, by its natural, generally polytheistic or henotheistic – at least as much as Hinduism is.

   Satanism is part of a monotheistic construct and is deliberately following a negative – harmful path that is more rooted in Objectivism (see Ayn Rand) than in religion. Greed and selfishness really are disgusting things. aggrandizing oneself at the expense of others is deplorable – and no fancy words – from a Satanist or a Randroid can EVER make them right.

   This is a farce, and this man may intend it as one – but as so often happens with people who really are, beneath whatever “veneer” “skeptics” – it harms the innocent in pursuit of its goals, which I am sure he thinks are worth that harm. Paganism is an actual religion or set of religions. Having a man claiming that it is indistinguishable from a religion that, in fact, it has NOTHING historically in common with, other than a later intervention by another religion is disturbing, at the least harms people who are genuine, religious Pagans – (not skeptics, not atheists, not agnostics – religious Pagans) and reduces their status by suggesting that, no, really, they really are no different from Satanists and yes, the Christian/Islamic myth set IS the real truth.

   Should this man be reading this comment. Please, stop pretending something you do NOT believe that is made up to make a point. Most people won’t get the point, and the next teenage Pagan/neo-Pagan who ends up beaten, or killing themselves – that’s YOUR fault. The good that doesn’t happen that might have due to Pagan groups – that’s YOUR fault. Have the common decency to act through groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation or the ACLU and stop play acting in ways that harm others – who have done NOTHING to you and no harm to the world.

   I am thoroughly disgusted by even reading this.

   • “To be a Satanist, as far as I’m concerned, you first have to be Christian or Muslim.”

     I’m pretty sure basically all Christians and Muslims would consider worshiping Satan to be outside of, and counter to, their religion. If we’re taking about LeVeyan Satanism, that’s atheistic, and so obviously not compatible with Christianity or Islam.

     However, there is nothing that prevents a polytheistic Pagan from acknowledging the existence of Yahweh, Jesus, Satan, or any other god or supernatural being

     • Margot Adler pointed out, in the first CUUPS Keynote Speech, that if someone’s central ritual is to say the Mass backward, there must be some residue of spiritual juice for them in the Mass said forward. Same with holding a cross upside down. People into that kind of satanism look a lot like heretics of the faith they mock. (This is not a comment on TST.)

       • Isaac Bonewits once said “Most people who practice Satanism are Christian fundamentalists in drag.”

         He was referring to LaVeyan Satanism, and I think he was essentially correct. I do not agree with some of the current thinking which says we must accept Satanism as being as Pagan as anything else. I don’t share it’s value system or its cosmology, which is inseparable from Christian theology.

         At the same time, I support the right of even true believing Satanists or self-identified worshippers of evil to follow their path AND to have the same access to the public square as everyone else. In this instance, and really with most of the Satanic activism on behalf of separation of church and state, we’re dealing with guys who are essentially humanists who are doing street theater and everyone seems to get the joke except for the Christian dominionists.

     • They can consider whatever they like, but they worship Satan as sure as they worship the god they claim to follow.

       How can they not?

       How can one worry and fear falling into Satan’s clutches, undertake the machinations they undertake to try to avoid it and not be worshiping him? How can they think doing all this is not giving him power and adoration?.

       They worship him as sure as if they knelt down an invoked him by name.

   • I could make a pretty darn good argument that most of today’s Neo-Paganism comes from the work of John Dee who was reacting to the excesses of the Catholic church, and those who followed him in ceremonial magic, and that only a few traditions are actual Pagans. Frankly, I admire the street theatre tactics these Satanist groups are using, they are classic ones from the sixties activism I took part in. It works, it harms none.

8. While I personally have questions about Satanism, it is a religion and therefore should enjoy the same rights that any other religion claims in this country. Sadly, there are people who have been indoctrinated into Christianity who simply cannot comprehend the right of any other form of religious practice to exist. In a large sense we can settle this on certain persons of Christian faith who seek to maintain control over and income from the same groups they are asked to advise as Ministers or Pastors. Of course these people are going to create a false sense that any other belief outside of “their product” is false and harmful; simply from an economic standpoint. We’re seeing this happen in Florida.