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	<title>Comments on: Splinter OTO Groups Can No Longer Call Themselves &quot;OTO&quot;</title>
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	<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html</link>
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		<title>By: Barbara</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-2621</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-2621</guid>
		<description>I wonder what this means for future printings of the Thoth Tarot, since as of today -- 01-17-2009 -- it appears to be out of print and out of stock at many stores in the US. Do you know if that&#039;s an outgrowth of this lawsuit? Apparently US Games Systems, Inc. isn&#039;t volunteering any information about its future availability. It&#039;s certainly news, since that deck has been continuously in print for so long, until now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what this means for future printings of the Thoth Tarot, since as of today &#8212; 01-17-2009 &#8212; it appears to be out of print and out of stock at many stores in the US. Do you know if that&#8217;s an outgrowth of this lawsuit? Apparently US Games Systems, Inc. isn&#8217;t volunteering any information about its future availability. It&#8217;s certainly news, since that deck has been continuously in print for so long, until now.</p>
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		<title>By: Tau Thomas</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-2395</link>
		<dc:creator>Tau Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-2395</guid>
		<description>These folks really do remind me more and more of Scientologists.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;Sue who thou wilt shall be the whole of the law...&quot; &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Occult of Personality&#039;s got a great interview with +Allen Greenfield at http://www.occultofpersonality.com/2007/12/20/podcast-35-an-inquiry-into-suppressed-information/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These folks really do remind me more and more of Scientologists.</p>
<p>&#8220;Sue who thou wilt shall be the whole of the law&#8230;&#8221; </p>
<p>Occult of Personality&#8217;s got a great interview with +Allen Greenfield at <a href="http://www.occultofpersonality.com/2007/12/20/podcast-35-an-inquiry-into-suppressed-information/" rel="nofollow">http://www.occultofpersonality.com/2007/12/20/podcast-35-an-inquiry-into-suppressed-information/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-1857</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-1857</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never bought Kenneth Grant&#039;s claims to be heir of much at all.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The fact of the matter is that I know people who worked in the Typhonian OTO over the years. Grant is bugfuck crazy and that organization isn&#039;t actually a real organization. It has no by-laws, no structure, and does no real work. It is simply a personality cult around Grant and acts as a legitimizer for him when he publishes his books. At various points, there have been other members (until he throws them out) but never any other leaders. It is a real OTO the way that Soviet Union was a real worker&#039;s paradise...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The OTO has problems but at least it has by-laws, is legally incorporated, and has working internal structures. I&#039;ve had two friends on the Areopagus (at least one of whom is still there) and I know quite a few people that have been there since 1977 (and in the precursor organizations that led rise to it in California that you don&#039;t mention). &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Does the OTO have its share of problems? Sure. That doesn&#039;t change the fact that it is an *actual* organization that functions and has at least a couple of thousand members. It has bodies in many many cities (where are the Typhonian bodies?) and has people engaging in a variety of works (where are the Typhonian works outside of Grant&#039;s books?).&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So, even though I am no longer a member, I go by the facts on the ground. The facts on the ground are that there is one functioning, in the sense of being an actual fraternal order as Crowley intended, OTO in the world. The fact that it is a bit sue happy about its name and trademarks or is willing to play legal shenanigans to enforce them, doesn&#039;t change that. When the other claimants can organize in many cities, creating a functional organization with members, annual meetings, newsletters (local and national) and all the various other things that the OTO does, I might take their claims slightly more seriously...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never bought Kenneth Grant&#8217;s claims to be heir of much at all.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that I know people who worked in the Typhonian OTO over the years. Grant is bugfuck crazy and that organization isn&#8217;t actually a real organization. It has no by-laws, no structure, and does no real work. It is simply a personality cult around Grant and acts as a legitimizer for him when he publishes his books. At various points, there have been other members (until he throws them out) but never any other leaders. It is a real OTO the way that Soviet Union was a real worker&#8217;s paradise&#8230;</p>
<p>The OTO has problems but at least it has by-laws, is legally incorporated, and has working internal structures. I&#8217;ve had two friends on the Areopagus (at least one of whom is still there) and I know quite a few people that have been there since 1977 (and in the precursor organizations that led rise to it in California that you don&#8217;t mention). </p>
<p>Does the OTO have its share of problems? Sure. That doesn&#8217;t change the fact that it is an *actual* organization that functions and has at least a couple of thousand members. It has bodies in many many cities (where are the Typhonian bodies?) and has people engaging in a variety of works (where are the Typhonian works outside of Grant&#8217;s books?).</p>
<p>So, even though I am no longer a member, I go by the facts on the ground. The facts on the ground are that there is one functioning, in the sense of being an actual fraternal order as Crowley intended, OTO in the world. The fact that it is a bit sue happy about its name and trademarks or is willing to play legal shenanigans to enforce them, doesn&#8217;t change that. When the other claimants can organize in many cities, creating a functional organization with members, annual meetings, newsletters (local and national) and all the various other things that the OTO does, I might take their claims slightly more seriously&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan Stratford+</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-1856</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan Stratford+</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-1856</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, it wasn&#039;t 1980, it was 1977.  My mistake.  Point is, the Typhonion OTO is older and has more direct legitimacy than the Caliphate, and the Caliphate is trying to sue the Kenneth Grant organization out of existence.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;For all of its &quot;elitist&quot; blather, the main argument in the case is all about &quot;the average consumer&quot;.  Is the &quot;average consumer&quot; going to know the difference between a California corporation and a UK religious organization when they use the same symbols and name?  That the Calphate would even take this to court should embarrass them.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The other argument the COTO is making is that AC didn&#039;t own his books, the bankruptcy trustee did, and COTO bought the copyrights from the trustee.  COTO also argues that Crowley&#039;s last will and testament (citing Grant et al) is invalid because the Caliphate says AC was mentally unfit.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;He was a crazy bankrupt, so don&#039;t listen to him, but buy our editions of his books!&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Wait til the kids in the lower triads find out that the manuscript of Liber Al and AC&#039;s ring have been auctioned off in order to pay for the lawyers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, it wasn&#8217;t 1980, it was 1977.  My mistake.  Point is, the Typhonion OTO is older and has more direct legitimacy than the Caliphate, and the Caliphate is trying to sue the Kenneth Grant organization out of existence.</p>
<p>For all of its &#8220;elitist&#8221; blather, the main argument in the case is all about &#8220;the average consumer&#8221;.  Is the &#8220;average consumer&#8221; going to know the difference between a California corporation and a UK religious organization when they use the same symbols and name?  That the Calphate would even take this to court should embarrass them.</p>
<p>The other argument the COTO is making is that AC didn&#8217;t own his books, the bankruptcy trustee did, and COTO bought the copyrights from the trustee.  COTO also argues that Crowley&#8217;s last will and testament (citing Grant et al) is invalid because the Caliphate says AC was mentally unfit.</p>
<p>&#8220;He was a crazy bankrupt, so don&#8217;t listen to him, but buy our editions of his books!&#8221;</p>
<p>Wait til the kids in the lower triads find out that the manuscript of Liber Al and AC&#8217;s ring have been auctioned off in order to pay for the lawyers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-1854</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-1854</guid>
		<description>93! Comparing the Caliphate with Scientology is a pretty stupid thing to do... I&#039;ll sue you for that ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>93! Comparing the Caliphate with Scientology is a pretty stupid thing to do&#8230; I&#8217;ll sue you for that <img src='http://wildhunt.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-1850</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-1850</guid>
		<description>It is a little older than 1980. There are direct antecedent groups with many of the same people in the 1970s.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I don&#039;t see it as shameful and sad at all and I&#039;m an ex-OTO member. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The &quot;Caliphate&quot; OTO is clearly the leader in the OTO race. I suppose that if any of the other claimants actually did anything or published (Grant&#039;s vanity publishing doesn&#039;t count), I might be more impressed with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a little older than 1980. There are direct antecedent groups with many of the same people in the 1970s.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see it as shameful and sad at all and I&#8217;m an ex-OTO member. </p>
<p>The &#8220;Caliphate&#8221; OTO is clearly the leader in the OTO race. I suppose that if any of the other claimants actually did anything or published (Grant&#8217;s vanity publishing doesn&#8217;t count), I might be more impressed with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-1848</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-1848</guid>
		<description>GMTA Jordan, I was going to say the same thing.  They&#039;ve just moved from sorta-cool esoteric group to full-fledged litigious cult.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(Where, oh where, did I leave that mask?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GMTA Jordan, I was going to say the same thing.  They&#8217;ve just moved from sorta-cool esoteric group to full-fledged litigious cult.</p>
<p>(Where, oh where, did I leave that mask?)</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan Stratford+</title>
		<link>http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call.html/comment-page-1#comment-1842</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan Stratford+</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 01:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wildhunt.org/blog/2008/06/splinter-oto-groups-can-no-longer-call-themselves-oto.html#comment-1842</guid>
		<description>The Caliphate, est. 1980, is the new Scientology.  Shameful and sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Caliphate, est. 1980, is the new Scientology.  Shameful and sad.</p>
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