You may disagree regarding my notion of “distance” from the “Pagan community”, but I personally (and many others like me) don’t believe that there is a unified, monolithic “pagan community”. I am not Wiccan; what a Wiccan author says does not reflect on me anymore than what a Baptist preacher writes reflects poorly on the Catholic church. I understand what you are trying to say (I think) but I just don’t view things that way. Asatru is an ethnic religion, and a very different kind of religion from Wicca. They are as different as night is from day. People who lump us together with Wiccans are ignorant; their opinion means nothing to me, except as an invitation to correct them.

Drew is not using the term “sacrifice” in the way that I understand the word, or in the way it was understood typically by Indo-European Pagans of the past. He is clearly intending a more modern rendering of the word “sacrifice”, as in “giving up something by destruction or lasting separation”. He is not accessing the term according to its more ancient meaning. And I never bashed Drew; I agreed that he should proceed, proudly.

Be well:

RA

As for being distanced from the Wiccan/Pagan Community, I would have to disagree. We are all considered in the same light by those outside our community. What is written by a Wiccan author reflects on all of us, regardless of our specific path. I don’t have children, but I’ll be damned if I’ll be painted with a Frost brush! We can run and we can hide, but this issue will bite us in the butt no matter what. Its time we take a stand against abuse in the name of our community!

AJ Drew said he would “sacrifice the Frosts in effigy”. Where is the notion of burning the Frosts in effigy coming from? Perhaps the word sacrifice should be examined more closely. Does it mean to destroy? Or to give? Think about that before bashing Mr Drew for something no one knows the details of yet.

Bright Blessings,
Shaitan Fenriz

Thank you for posting all these good posts that helped me to understand the controversy that is happening here.

I must say, I admire your moderation and sanity in the midst of this storm. I must also make the observation that I am happy to be a part of a Pagan Movement- Asatru- which is safely distant from the “mainstream” Pagan movement- that thing you call the “pagan community”, but which really seems to be the “Wiccan community”.

We Asatruar, and to a lesser extent, those Traditional (non-wiccan) Witches for whom I have written and with whom I work, have the great pleasure of being distant from all this nonsense. But since I believe that the “prime duty of the wise is involvement”, and since I have seen the offending work of the Frosts’ in question, I guess I should say that I support Drew fully.

I am a father, and the father of a daughter. The Frosts, in the name of their fully invented “craft”, instructed and encouraged people in the molestation of children, of underage girls. I understand that some people- with whom I vociferously disagree- think that it’s wrong to call underage people “children” and have issues with our society’s standards and cut-off ages for “adulthood” and the like. I think that the system we have works just fine. Age 17 is, in most states, the age of consent for sexual activities, and it’s even lower in other places. The people have decided these ages; the states have decided them.

Like it or not, it’s the law, and it protects a lot of people. It protects because, despite the wishful thinking of many, girls and boys don’t advance in maturity today as they used to in the “old days”. We consider our children to ‘grow up faster’ nowadays, but I see only stunted growth everywhere I look- I don’t think seeing breasts and cocks on television or hearing sexual references in media today encourages rapid maturity; I think it encourages exactly the opposite.

Drew is right to be offended by these trashy writings. He’s also well within his rights to protest them however he sees fit. He can burn effigies all night- this is a free land, and he’s not burning people. He’s making a moral, political, and even spiritual statement, one that I think the “Pagan community” needs to hear more of- for too long the “Pagan community” has been in the grip of what amounts to sexual degradation and debauchery, all in the name of “liberation from patriarchal repression”.

It’s an old story that died out with the hippies, and which I only find being supported actively today by sexual predators (and I’ve known some) and very, very sexually immature people whom we refer to as “playgans”.

I’m not a prude- I’m quite the opposite, but there is a way to express the Heathen and Pagan notion that sexuality is natural and immune to the guilt heaped onto it by certain religious traditions, and then there are extremes that any person of reason can see are harmful or disgusting. A short search of the annals of history present Historical Pagan societies as NOT being as liberal about sex as most modern Pagans would like to present.

I support Drew, and I hope that he gains some success- but sadly, your final point is disturbingly impossible to avoid: this will generate quite a lot of publicity, and that is not a good thing. All the same, I know that Drew has to do what he feels is right. And his spirit is guided correctly, to face a perversion that never should have emerged in the first place.

I feel no personal need to join Drew in some form of sorcerous retaliation against the Frosts, because I know deep in my bones that when these two malignants finally rattle out their last breaths, their journey down the Hel-way will not be a pleasant one, and that the twisted natures within them will become seeds that find purchase in the depths of the Underworld, never to grow or be seen again. Death and the Justice of the Gods will sever this particular blight from the face of day-lit decency.

I love your blog, by the way- thank you for giving me the chance to comment here.

Wisdom guide you always:

Robin Artisson

If Mr. Drew wanted my attention on the issue he could have simply sent me an e-mail (he has never done so). The idea that you have to use the methods he has to “raise awareness” is completely false.

I have worked for years with activist organizations, and I can tell you that progress is often slow, and that coalition building can be frustrating. It can often become tempting to do something “drastic” to gain attention, but while that attention is often intense and seems productive, it also leaves no infrastructure to maintain momentum on the issue.

To a certain extent I believe Drew prizes his “outsider, lone sane voice in the wilderness” persona, but “activists” of that sort don’t build long-lasting movements, and often “burn-out” from their reliance on shock-tactics and attacks.

Yes, this issue is getting attention, but Drew’s methods are to a large extent gaining more “press” than the actual issue of child endangerment in our community. THAT is a real tragedy that could have been avoided by sending me and other “prominent” bloggers a press release.

The Frosts use the term ‘child’ in their book and couple it with phrasing such as ‘at the earliest possible age’ and ‘when the physical attributes of reproduction are present’. US law states that doing what they write about doing to a ‘child’ (using their terms) is illegal.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that it is not acceptable to get a child drunk, give them a live sex show and then send them off for their own sexual initiation. Not engaging in drunken sex is not going to limit any ‘mature mind’ in a child’s body.

I notice that you don’t address the issue- whether sex with children is acceptable or not. Only that not doing it can ‘limit their mind’… Would you care to address the issue of sexual initiation of children at this time?

As for ‘burning in effigy’- LOL Well, let’s just say people read alot into things when they get their knickers into a knot

It has always been my general line of thought that anyone who does anything for the ‘shock effect’ (Isaac Bonewits quoted on this blog on 8/10/07) has next to nothing in the way of actual talent and is best ignored.

Ignored in this case being: them not invited to speak at public pagan-centric events, their books not being sold in pagan owned stores, when being asked about them by the media stating “I find some of the concepts and lack of explanations disturbing and refuse to discuss the issue further”, ect. – in short a general passive boycott.

No burning at the stake, no saber rattling, but the withholding of my hard earned money. Being a firm believer that both cream and garbage rise to the top but garbage will again sink to the bottom without outside support.

That is the best course of action in this particular case as there is a lack of evidence of any pedophilic activities.

My two cents and plan of action for what it’s worth.

~Illisse

Why does the protection of our wiccan children have to be different then the protection given to other children. The literature should be stopped, and the should be punished for promoting sex with children and they shoudl be punished in court just like any other person that was pushing pedophila. It is wrong, I don’t care what your belief system is. There is never a just cause for abusing children. And that is what sexual initiation with children would be, abuse.

Do not lower yourself to that level and promote a sacrifice that goes against the our fundamental beliefs. Take it to the authorities.

Just my thoughts…. Blessed Be~