I think such open dialog is a good thing.

An excellent point. This does happen again and again when Mr. Drew tries to defend himself: a completely indiscriminate, irrelevant use of extreme hyperbole or impertinent examples. Recently he asked people if, in addition to “supporting” the Frosts , they also supported NAMBLA: in his mind, one must automatically include the other. I don’t think he does this as a diversion, I think he really thinks it’s the same thing, which is even more worriesome.

You can’t see the difference between making recommendations to prison officials as to which books are and are not appropriate for prisoners, and contacting people who are anti-Pagan (not to mention anti-gay, anti-woman, and anti-evolution) ideologues? This points out why I have an issue with your tactics.

“I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?”

This sentence sums up exactly why I don’t like your methods. Someone criticizes you for contacting Colson (who is no friend to anything Pagan) instead of simply contacting prison officials where you work, and you then ask them if they also want you to “keep your mouth shut” concerning racist material.

If you can’t see the difference between criticisms of your methods in one instance, and the criticism of everything you do in any context, then perhaps you should consider how appropriate a spokesman for this issue you are.

Yes and it is working very well. Thank you for noticing and participating.

Concerning Christopher W. Chase, I am surprised that an academic would state “The magickal burning of someone in effigy seems like such an extreme tactic” when I have never stated I was burning a thing in effigy. My words have been very clear, I intend to sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy.

Concerning Charles Colson, a prison minister, I was responding to his public statement that he does not feel pagan clergy should be funded by the government in exchange for their service within US prisons. I illustrated to him that without knowable advice, the Ohio prison system had previously allowed imprisoned sex offenders to order a book which promotes pedophilia in the name of Wicca. I have also had conversation with at least one member of the Bush administration about this matter.

You seem to think that nothing positive can come from my efforts. As you brought up Charles Colson, you must be aware of what I said to the man. You must be aware that one of the things that have come from my efforts is that the Ohio prison system has become aware of the pedophilic nature of the book in question. And yet, you seem to think that I should not involve people who contribute to the decision of funding Wiccan Chaplains in the prison system of the great value in identifying pedophilic literature. I have also been involved in identifying books such as Creed of Iron as racist literature. Should I keep my mouth shut about that as well?

Protecting the reputation of the Wiccan community is irrelevant compared to the fact that there are Wiccan sex offenders in prison who stand a better chance of not repeating their crimes if they do not receive literature supporting those crimes in the name of Wicca.

With all due respect to Chase’s description as an academic, when he has a long history of sitting across a table from men who have raped children in the hopes that when the state releases them they will not repeat their crimes, well then once he has walked in my shoes on that subject, I might be willing to discuss the matter with him as I am with Christian ministers who must do the same thing for the same reasons.

My involvement with the prison system is not for the purpose of blindlessly defending Wicca. It is to better my children’s odds against being molested and raped.

Assuming it would not involve upsetting survivors in any way by their presence or statements, I would also ask them to do something to donate time and money to helping survivors of sexual abuse. I have to say, though, even then I would not personally feel right including the Frosts in general Pagan community events.

While I think it is appropriate and helpful to speak openly and honestly about our opinions on these matters, and find ways to make abusers feel the rage and pain of their victims, I don’t think burning anyone in effigy is going to improve the situation. It smacks of an aggressive publicity stunt that will backfire and cause more harm to sane discourse than anything else. If there’s something illegal the Frosts can be charged with, by all means go ahead; but public cursings and burnings only make the accuser look maniacal. Not a smart tactic.

Perhaps some sort of forum where those who feel harmed by the Frost’s work would be more helpful. Perhaps this is happening on the Internet, but it may be something to consider doing in person if folks on all sides of the issue are open to it.

My wishes are for justice, and for the healing of those who’ve been victimized by sexual predators in the community, no matter whose books may have inspired or encouraged them.

Prior to Peg Aloi joining Pagan Nation as Nightshy, I wrote to her in her capacity as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice.

No, you did not. I never received an email from you. You may have written to Witchvox, but not ot me.

I wrote to solicit the help of The Witches Voice in the matter of bringing Gavin and Yvonne Frost to task for what they have promoted. At first, I thought she had ignored my request for help from The Witches Voice.

No, I never received any such request.

Later I discovered her response was to come to the community site that I operate and vigilantly defend not only Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but also the book they wrote.

I did not do this as a “response” to your imaginary email. I did so as a human being concerned by the libelous attack on the Frosts, I did this as an anonymous individual and at no time gave my name or mentioned any affiliation. I have already cleary stated this.

She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter.

No. Not possible, since I never received such a request. In any case, since I did not give my name or affiliation, the two things are not connected.

As I understand it, she is a single mother.

Oh, really? This is news to me. You must have me confused with someone else. I’d love to know who told you this piece of tripe.

I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.

What I find “disgusting and vile” is your constant attempt to call attention to yourself using whatever lowbrow, antagonistic and just plain nasty methods you can think of. But you know, your own actions have surely netted you some negative karma. The longer you keep it up, the worse it will be for you. As someoen who has written several books on Wicca, it is surprising you don’t know this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMBLA

http://www.nambla.org/

To the best of my knowledge, they have not been responsible for raping children. They simply publish literature discussing why it should take place. In there case, the reason seems to be love. In the case of the Frosts book, the reason seems to be initiation into Wicca.

I wonder if Peg Aloi supports them as strongly as she supports Gavin and Yvonne Frost? I wonder if Amanda would feel that attacks on NAMBLA would amount to a witch hunt? After all, both the Frosts and NAMBLA are responsible for writing and circulating literature, which encourages pedophilia. The difference I see is that to the best of my knowledge, NAMBLA publishes opinions on why such should be legalized while Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote an instruction manual.

Honestly folk, someone please explain the difference here? Or are we, as a community, supposed to support, defend, and promote NAMBLA as well?

She claims she was not publicly acting as the Media Coordinator for The Witches Voice when she defended the Frosts and what they wrote, however it seems clear to me that her actions at PaganNation.com were the result of my asking her as Media Coordinator for help in this matter. As I understand it, she is a single mother. I thought for sure she would feel as I do that what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote was disguesting and vial.

Concerning the constant statements here and elsewhere that I have announced that I would be burning the Frosts in effigy. I have heard that I am putting a sword in their head, decapitating them, disemboweling them, and a few other hysterical claims. I have said simply that I will be sacrificing them in effigy and that my reason for stating so was to cause folk to discuss the matter. As you, this blog owner, has stated that he will be discussing the content of that book on the morrow, my strategy appears to be working.

Concerning the allegations the ritual Sacrifice to Caring being black magic, I can not honestly tell you what it involves, as I am not writing it. The ritual is being written by survivors of rape and incest, both male and female. The folk who organize The Real Witches Ball and myself do have a very good time at the event, but it is not simply a party. Every year we choose a work, an endeavor which we feel will benefit our community. In the past we have worked with the Tempest Smith foundation, raising money and awareness of its cause with Tempest’s mother Denessa Smith. We have worked with the Red Cross in an event we call the Blood Sacrifice. I could go on, but the point being that this year we have decided to work with children’s charities and in particular children’s causes which address the issue of incest, molestation, and rape.

In the course of study, I have discovered an interesting fact in this matter. Among people who work with surviving children, there is an underline belief that silence about incest and child molestation is kin to enabling it to continue. In examining the more than three decades since the Frosts published the book in question, I find that it has been our silence, the pagan communities silence, which has enabled their view of Wicca to continue. Thus, I attempted to address those who remain silent.

In disgust, I have learned that they do not only remain silent; but many of those who I thought were simply silent were in fact willing to defend the book. Others, such as Peg Aloi go to the point of defending the Frosts and the book under alias after alias. Frankly, at this point I do not know what to think about the pagan community. There in I have met many a fine man and woman, but there in I have met many who would do nothing against something which seems so horrifically wrong.

I do not see the greatest problem as Gavin and Yvonne Frost raping children. I never have. In fact, I do not know that they have done such. I see the greatest problem as the folk, who will not only ignore what they have written, but to defend and promote it gleefully. My opinion is similar to those of the people who work with child survivors of incest and molestation, like the social workers and child psychologists I have discussed this with, I believe the greatest problem is not the molesters, but those who enable this sort of behavior. For if it were not for the enablers, the molesters would be less likely to offend.

But then, my opinion does not really matter as much as yours does. My opinion does not matter as much as the hundreds of folk who are talking about this now. I am but one person. You bloggers are thousands upon thousands. So I consider it an honor to be the one who stirred you into reviewing the content of that book here on one of the more popular pagan blogs.