Occult Publisher Scarlet Imprint Leaves Facebook, Will Others Follow?

Jason Pitzl-Waters —  October 26, 2012 — 40 Comments

Of the many small occult-oriented publishers Scarlet Imprint is probably one of the most acclaimed, and also one of the most outspoken. Over the years they have taken very public stances on everything from matters  political to piracy; at the same time they have published well-received poetry collections and in-depth thoughtful meditations by authors like John Michael Greer. However, while Scarlet Imprint recently branched out into the digital realm in regards to publishing, it doesn’t seem they have found their experiences in the realm of social media as enriching, and they’ve publicly announced their withdrawal from Facebook.

scarlet imprint leaving

“Magicians should be asking themselves very serious questions about how they relate to technology. We engage in this self-interrogation on a regular basis and have come to the decision to leave facebook, the maw that rapaciously devours online traffic, a memetic infestation which trivialises the numinous and significantly alters behaviour patterns for the worse. Facebook in particular is choking under the weight of content, and awaits the same inexorable fate as myspace before it and no doubt diaspora next. 

As we have previously stated, without Scarlet Imprint we would choose not to have any personal online profile at all. As such we have a duty to Her, the daemons, spirits and our authors to get the work out for the serious participants in the occult community. We will continue to maintain an online presence, as a necessary evil. Our friends are scattered like stars, and online has been essential for us to make these connections. We are fortunate to say that many of the best practitioners we know have no online profile, and would suggest that those who are most vocal online should perhaps have their claims taken with a pinch of salt.”

Scarlet Imprint’s co-publisher Peter Grey goes on to question whether the Internet is making us dumber (an idea that has found some popularity in recent years) and suggests that our magical (and I assume mundane) selves would be enriched by unplugging from it.

“We would suggest that your practice would benefit if you get the hell out of it, or at least minimise your exposure to the cognitive load. This is what we attempt to do, whilst still selling enough books to survive, and making sure that the right people come across our work.”

Perhaps not un-coincidentally this move by Scarlet Imprint comes during something of a mini-revolt by small businesses and brands voiced by the alternative media outlet Dangerous Minds. In a post entitled “Facebook: I Want My Friends Back,” Richard Metzger slams the social media giant for breaking the service in a cheap attempt to generate revenue, destroying the small but significant audiences many smaller brands and artists have built at the service.

Zuck background22

“Summing up, Facebook has taken a pee in their own pool from quite a lofty height, turning vast armies of “influentials” against the company, people who are now making plans—born of necessity—to bolt from that pool and to stop putting any effort there. Furthermore, Facebook’s greedy grab will have the knock-on effect of causing many blogs to simply throw in the towel, diminishing Facebook’s own business ecosystem and Facebook’s value to its own users to the point where only Axe Deodorant, Taco Bell and Nike will be showing up in your Facebook newsfeed, which after all, is pretty much the sole point of Facebook in the first place! They’ve deliberately broken their own product’s biggest selling point. Whose idea was that?”

The sentiments expressed by Metzger were echoed by Anne Newkirk Niven, publisher of Pagan-oriented magazines like Witches & Pagans and Sage Woman.

ann facebook

Which makes me wonder: will Scarlet Imprint’s move inspire occult and Pagan businesses and brands increasingly frustrated by the recent changes laid out by Dangerous Minds? Will a confluence of dissatisfactions spark a trend toward exodus? While I can’t see bigger Pagan brands like Llewellyn Worldwide ever leaving Facebook, it’s very possible that niche and mid-size ones might start looking into viable alternatives. What that viable alternative might be is an open question as Google+ and other services haven’t seemed to gain much traction against the Facebook juggernaut. Who knows, maybe the second coming of MySpace will change everything? In the meantime, I wish Scarlet Imprint luck in their Facebook-less future.

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Jason Pitzl-Waters

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  • Dver

    Great news! Glad to see some other pagans and occultists seeing the light. Facebook is a monumental time-suck and therefore a hazard for people who have actual spiritual Work to do. I agree that some of the most important practitioners are not online at all, and we would do well to think about why that might be. I have resisted FB (and all other non-content-heavy online arenas) from the beginning and am interested to see some other folks finally starting to come around.

    • thehouseofvines

      And maybe it can start a whole new trend! The lemmings all flocked to social media and now they will flock away from it. They are still lemmings though.

  • Zan Fraser

    I completely agree that the Internet and things such as”Stupid Phones’ (I refuse to call them “Smart,” because they make people stupid, however more “smart” they may make people feel) are making people into distracted morons. The number of people seen walking down the street these days, lost in some texting world held in a little box: they don’t look up; “reality” for them is something away from where they physically are; and physical beings cease to appear as “real” to them. The number of people who march around with wires in their ears, yakking at the top of their voice into a little square in their hand, oblivious to anyone or anything but their own “personal” phone call- people walk around now routinely carrying their little Stupid Boxes in their hand constantly, as if it were a life-giving talisman, as something that they perceive that they need constant, instant access to. I’m really wondering if the social fascination with Zombies doesn’t metaphorically reflect this changing social phenomenon.

    • http://www.forgingthesampo.com/ Kauko

      I’ve noticed over the last few years, when I’m with a groups of people, that everyone seems to have their phones out and is fiddling with them instead of actually, you know, socializing with the people around them. It always strikes me as incredibly bad manners, but, judging by how common it’s become, I’m in the minority on that.

      • Dver

        One of the many reasons I do not have many friends is that I would absolutely refuse to put up with that BS behavior. I have no interest in spending time with people who are mentally engaged elsewhere.

      • sunfell

        I have one rule I use where mobile social tech (phones) is concerned: Real people trump digital people. No phones/fondleslabs, etc will be used in the presence of actual people unless I am looking something up for them right at that moment. Texts can wait. “Can you call me back” is my mantra.

  • Scheherazade

    First of all, I love SI, I have all of their publications and I thoroughly enjoy reading their blog. The following comments are just generalizations and not, in any way, directed solely at SI or Peter and Alkistis:

    There’s something incredibly problematic about folks propagating the falsehood that “real” magicians are somehow ensconced in a technological cave and that “the real hardcore” occultists do not participate in social media. Eschewing social media is a personal choice that is, in no way, indicative of bona fide magical sincerity/ability.

    Taken to its logical conclusion, why publish books at all? Why sponsor lectures on occult topics? Why attend gatherings like Panthecon or the Esoteric Book Conference? Why profane these mysteries and *sell* your intellectual property? After all, these books, classes and lectures are not free – they have been commodified and are available to every interested mindless consumer drone. (Many of these consumers do not actually *practice* magic, they are just collectors of books.) Why not just hole up in a cave in the desert and content yourself with your own thoughts about being “teh realz hardc0re”?

    Until that happens, I just have to call “bullshit” on this particular anti-FB argument.

    • Dver

      It’s not that any of this theoretically would make someone not a “hardcore” occultist, it’s that people who have an actual practice tend to have less time to waste on a variety of social media sites. Because sorry, but that’s what most of it is, wasting time. When you are in a ritual and thinking about how you’ll be posting pics of it to your Tumblr or FB or tweeting about it later, you are not in the right headspace, and that’s what’s happening to a LOT of pagans these days.

      • http://twitter.com/catvincent Ian ‘Cat’ Vincent

        …and if the ritual you’re doing is a networked technomage rite?

        I agree there’s a fair bit of dissociation and people failing their multitasking rolls, but for all of that there are also tech-literate mages working real magic with online use as a valid tool. To disparage this because some folk are Doing It Wrong is naive at best.

        • Dver

          I’m sure there are some exceptions, like you said – people using the internet as a tool to actually do their practice. But that’s not what most of the activity on FB is, I think we all know that.

          • http://twitter.com/catvincent Ian ‘Cat’ Vincent

            If SI’s comments had stuck to the failings of FB, that would be a good point. But as they literally used phrases like “The internet makes you stupider, stupid”, it really doesn’t.

      • Scheherazade

        Well, that’s the problem with generalizations, I guess. I am incredibly busy and I don’t waste time on FB by playing FarmVille, uploading pics, chatting, etc. I use FB as a tool that collates information in my newsfeed. The ten minutes or so I spend on FB is pretty damn minimal. I do not use other social networking sites, I do not blog and I do not have some online life that acts as a substitute for my real life. Not that any of the foregoing means squat or makes me some “grand poobah of magic,” but I recognize it for what it is.

        I just find it incredibly hypocritical for folks with a website, a blog and a concrete online presence (an online presence that has brought them revenue and renown) to start casting aspersions on others who find value from FB. I find it a hilarious notion that having a blog or a website “gifts” a person with an omniscience regarding how serious an anonymous person’s practice may or may not be.

        • Dver

          It’s interesting to me how defensive people get when you disparage FB and other social media sites. If you use it so little, why get so defensive about it? Clearly you’re not the person the rest of us are referring to when we talk of people who have substituted virtual interaction for real interaction.

          To me, there is a clear difference between content-heavy internet sites such as blogs, and the meaningless drivel that comprises 90% of FB. If you find usefulness in that other 10% (or hell, even in the 90%) then more power to you. But the way most people just line up like sheep to sign away their lives to the next big internet fad (not to mention the next big gadget with which to shield themselves from reality) is the problem here, as I see it.

      • http://twitter.com/thelettuceman Marc

        Dver, please. There’s long been a trend of elitist feelings about the opening up of previous occult mysteries to networking, and I can see this as a larger reaction in that regard. They could have just as easily said, “We here at Scarlet Imprint find Facebook no longer holds the appeal that it once did as a way for us to translate our customer’s needs, nor as a way we wish to continue to offer our services. The reasons for this are [various reasons and ways that Facebook is throttling their creativity/content/etc].” End statement, full stop.

        They could have opted against the flowery, intellectually-demeaning and disparaging statements which casts them in an overly pompous and elitist light. I had never heard of Scarlet Imprint before reading this post on the Wild Hunt. With this kind of attitude, I’m going to be hesitant to EVER do business with them, if they consider me a technologically-addicted peon. It isn’t good business sense, it won’t cause people to want to use their service. They’ve practically lost a potential customer, as far as I’m concerned. And if they feel that’s fine, that they cater to some kind of magical/occultist intelligentsia and elite, that’s fine. But their customer pool is going to suffer because of it, and their business will take a nosedive.

        Whether you believe that Facebook or the Internet is a waste of time isn’t the issue. But saying that people who have an “actual practice” have less time to waste on social media sites? That’s ridiculous. Do people with an “actual practice” have less time to waste on a social LIFE? Because really, between working, grad school, and trying to make it as an upper-20s something today, Facebook is literally the only way I can get in touch with people who otherwise live eight miles down the road. Our schedules don’t mesh, at all. It helps me translate my ideas, have discussions, etc. But I may be different – I only have friends who I know in person or would otherwise know in person. I’ve found Facebook to be a great resource for communities that are small enough and help translate information across a broad spectrum.

        People not being “in the right headspace” is an individual issue, not the issue with the service. Although I think it’s kind of silly to argue that. Not everyone thinks alike, not everyone is going to have the same brain chemistry.

  • http://egregores.blogspot.com Apuleius Platonicus

    There is a strong anti-modernist streak that runs throug much of modern Pagandom. Mostly this is a good thing, but like everything it should be done with moderation and deliberation. Knee-jerk anti-modernism is a little (yes a little) better than blind trust in Progress, but a thoughtful anti-modernism is what we really need. And to that end I think it is well worth reading Scarlet Imprint’s very thoughtful and articulate explanation in full and to think about what they are saying and doing.

    Resistance is not futile.

    • PhaedraHPS

      I don’t think I can agree with this. I have found on the whole (of course not universally) that Pagans loom large among early adopters of technology. I think some of it has to do with the natural geekery associated with people who go looking for the occult, but it is also related to the science-embracing rather than science-fearful attitude of most Pagan religious paths. To quote Brother Crowley, “We place no reliance / On Virgin or pigeon / Our method is Science / Our aim is Religion.”

      I’m not going to say we don’t have our Luddites, but I could go on and on about well-known Pagan popularizers who were on computers before computers were cool. Plenty of them are respectable magicians, too.

      • http://egregores.blogspot.com Apuleius Platonicus

        Those who are most intimately familiar with technology are often those who are most concerned about its impact. Steve Wozniak and Brian Kernighan are among those who have recently called attention to the increasingly serious privacy concerns associated with the Internet.

        In August, Wozniak predicted that there will be “horrible problems in the next five years” as a result of cloud computing (link). And this month Kernighan stated that “we are heading to a world that will make the invasions of Orwell’s 1984 seem desirable by contrast.” (link)

        • PhaedraHPS

          I don’t think you have addressed my post. Understanding the deeper implications of technology is much more the realm of the tech savvy, rather than the Luddite; the true Luddite won’t understand tech well enough to have legitimate concerns. But concern is not the point. The point is that a huge proportion of Pagans are tech savvy, many are early adopters, and plenty of them are respectable magicians.

          • http://egregores.blogspot.com Apuleius Platonicus

            There are a number of overlapping issues here. One is whether or not anti-modernism is a significant factor in modern Paganism. I think it is. Another issue is whether or not tech-savvy people are often very suspicious of the ways in which technology is used by governments and corporations. I think they are.

            Perhaps the problem, though, is with the term Luddite. It has no single unambiguous meaning. My own attitude toward new technology depends on how I encounter it. If I first encounter a technology because it is being foisted upon me by aggressive marketing and/or some unasked for “upgrade” that addresses “problems” I don’t actually have, then I am immediately suspicious or even hostile. If, however, I encounter some new technology that addresses real existing problems and fixes those problems without breaking stuff that already works, then I am far more likely to be positive.

  • http://twitter.com/catvincent Ian ‘Cat’ Vincent

    Dear me, that’s a few good points drowned in elitist bollocks in that statement…

    I don’t have a problem with them leaving FB at all, and the points raised about it specifically, as well as the comments on advertising, are salient. But lines like these… “many of the best practitioners we know have no online profile, and would suggest that those who are most vocal online should perhaps have their claims taken with a pinch of salt”

    “The internet is making you stupider, stupid.”,

    “go read a book” and

    “making sure that the right people come across our work”

    …reek of elitism, Luddism and condescension.

    And attempting to justify this with pop-neurology claims actually weakens your case. (For every reference to ‘cognitive load’ and such, I could easily cite contradictory studies that show internet use actually enhance intelligence. It’s as bad as reading Susan Greenfield on computer games…)

    You don’t like being online – fine.
    But disparaging the mages who can and do work well here, form genuine intentional communities and often have no other contact with fellow occultists with a farrago of smug self-justification and false distinctions between real/offline and digital/online is just crass.

    I love Scarlet Imprint’s work and respect their talent. And I’m sure they’ve had their fair share of frustrations with the web. But this statement just reads like a weak blast of neophobia.

    • sunfell

      I am geographically and socially isolated from many of my fellow practitioners, so having online social access has been great. And I adore the Internet- it doles out amazing, thoughtful discourse and full-bore codswallop with equal aplomb. SI’s announcement is a wonderful- if probably unintentional- example of this signal/noise problem. It’s up to the individual to find their own way. If we do it online or off- at least we’re doing it.
      It would be lovely to create our own spaces online, unfettered by the noise, ads and constantly shifting privacy settings of the mainstream sites. But experience has shown that if you build it, there’s no guarantee of support.
      The Web has its good and bad points- like real life does. Let’s not forget that.

    • Charles Cosimano

      I have nothing against elitism that has some basis but this was a load of self-righteous, self-justifying utter garbage. We may look forward to them going out of business for lack of any new customers even hearing about them. And good riddance.

    • Amy Hale

      I agree wholeheartedly, Ian. I honestly rather mistrust Luddites.

      • http://egregores.blogspot.com Apuleius Platonicus

        Well, Amy, you are on the record as suspecting all anti-modernism of being symptomatic of proto-fascism. And I honestly rather mistrust people who engage in fascist-baiting.

  • http://www.myspace.com/kadynastar Khryseis_Astra

    It really seems like the whole net neutrality issue in microcosm… those with the big bucks will be able to afford to have their message heard loud and clear (and ad nauseum), and the smaller fish will get pushed out of the pond altogether. Also sounds quite similar to what Citizens United has done for politics… gee, anyone seeing a pattern forming?

    And some people really think that letting the so-called “free market” sort it out will solve things. You can’t really call it a “free market” when the playing field is so uneven. I feel bad for the many smaller businesses and craftspeople in our wider community who rely on things like Facebook to reach customers they may never have had access to otherwise.

  • Shea Thomas

    The weekly Pagan comic strip Noland Comics will be leaving Facebook in the next couple of months for exactly this reason. Too much time and effort was put into building an audience with quality content only to have Facebook now throttle the reach.

  • sunfell

    Tech and social media have their places, and the well-tempered, competent and genuinely engaged Mage will be able to properly balance their use with real life.

  • Ryan

    I would question the judgement that Google+ and the like haven’t gained much traction, at least for the purposes of an alternative in the way you discuss here. Do they have fewer users? Sure. However, if you are looking for an alternative within a minority community, that isn’t really a bad thing, as having everyone in the freaking world in your network doesn’t really help use it as a tool. My understanding was that there is, for example, a pretty robust pagan Google+ community. Of course, I might have been misinformed…

    • http://www.gopagan.com/ GOPagan

      I moved from FB to G+ about six months ago and haven’t looked back. Google+ does seem to have been adopted by certain subcultures; it’s huge among the tabletop RPG fans, for instance.

      • http://twitter.com/thelettuceman Marc

        I’ll admit that I don’t use G+ for many things, but this Tabletop RPG community intrigues me. Care to direct me?

        • http://www.gopagan.com/ GOPagan

          Well it’s not so much a single group that can be joined as the loose collection of RPG bloggers (particularly those in the OSR– Old School Renaissance) who have joined one another’s G+ circles. I’ll ping you on twitter and see if I can’t point you in the right direction.

  • PhaedraHPS

    I have a love/hate relationship with social media for all the usual reasons. It can be a time suck. But it keeps me in touch with a lot of people. I didn’t join FB until quite late, 2009. Once both my husband and my son were friends on FB, but I wasn’t, I felt it was time. And Isaac often told me he got more bookings through FB than through any other communication channel. I have found that to be true, too. It was me who set up our FB fan page, which turned out to be invaluable for keeping people informed during Isaac’s illness. I had relatives who joined FB just to keep up with that news, because it was exhausting for me to repeat information over and over again in different venues.

    The throttling of fan page post dissemination goes back at least six months, which is when I started to bring it to people’s attention. I actually had people tell me I was wrong! Of course, page administrators can see stuff that regular folks can’t. I’ve watched the interactions on the Isaac and Phaedra Bonewits page plunge. Frankly, I post things to it less and less now, since I know what is there will be seen by so few people. Everyone loses, I guess.

    Profoundly changing the way a fan page works is a corporate betrayal on
    two levels, one for the people who were pushed into creating the page,
    and one for the people who “liked” a page believing that they would get
    the benefit (coupons, notifications, whatever) of liking that page. As I have said elsewhere, (on FB :-) page owners were pressured to create the pages by the 5000 “friends” cap on personal pages. Once you maxed or near-maxed your friends, the only way to continue to reach people was via a fan page. And technically, by FB’s rules, personal pages were only supposed to be for individuals, anyway.

    FB used to pressure page owners to buy ads to drive visits (and presumably then “likes”) to the page, but once you got a “like,” supposedly it was yours. I never bothered to advertise our page; it’s not like Isaac or I ever really made money through it, it was a way of keeping in touch with fans who were more interested in our professional lives than our personal lives. But a lot of mom and pop businesses (I’m thinking, for example, of the feed store back in Pittsboro NC) use their page to tell customers about sales or new items or coupons. With a small business, every little bit helps. To suddenly throttle the page’s reach to 10-15% of its fan base unless you pay to play is killer to little businesses that operate on the edge (most little businesses operate on the edge!).

    I don’t buy the “it’s a free service, what do you expect” argument,
    either. We pay by the barrage of advertising, and we are commodified by
    the site’s data mining. As the saying goes, there is no free lunch.

    Then there is the seamy underside of “like” manipulation, where bots click on ads (every click is charged to the page owner) and also “like” pages, to the point where for big pages a large number of the “likes” are from fake accounts anyway. So if you are paying per impression, you are paying for posts to go to lots of fake accounts, too. That’s money down the drain. This is not new; I saw this kind of manipulation long before FB, where businesses would get people or bots to click on, say, Google ads, in order to strain or even bust the advertising budgets of rival businesses. If your page has 100 or 1000 “likes,” 10% fake accounts doesn’t seem like a lot (although it is to a small business), but bigger pages with 10,000 or 100,000 fans take a huge hit paying to send posts to 10-20% fake accounts. And why should FB care? It makes money. The page owner takes the hit.

    At any rate, I’m not pulling out of FB yet, although I may go back & look at Google+ again. Yeah, I’m a late adopter :-) Actually, I have been on Google+ for quite some time, but it was just too much duplicated content (the same posts on G+, FB, Twitter). I couldn’t see the point myself of trying to put unique content on each venue; one way or another I’d be missing people, but all the duplication wore me out, so I couldn’t see the point of inflicting it on others. Anyway, we’ll see.

    • http://twitter.com/catvincent Ian ‘Cat’ Vincent

      Good points from the coalface there, Phaedra. Other folk who are trying to use FB as a way of staying in touch with a small, devoted fanbase (the comics & SF writer Warren Ellis springs to mind) have found the FB pay-to-play change crippling, G+ insufficient and just blogging mostly playing to the choir. Warren’s actually resorting to old-skool email newsletters.

      • PhaedraHPS

        We used to do emails, but they are a lot more work than 140 characters. People forget that FB statuses used to be limited to not much longer than that. An email is also essentially more intrusive. I can tweet or FB something short or current, but getting a bunch of emails with messages of that length would be annoying to me, at least. If I’m going to do an entire newsletter, I may as well do a blog post. Unfortunately, with my current poor health, I don’t have the energy to do long forms.

  • Lupa

    As both a nature-based pagan and a longtime geek, I get frustrated wth the technology vs nature false dichotomy. It is quite possible to have a healthy, thriving spiritual practice and also be plugged into tech innovations and maintain a healthy balance. For my own part, having a strong online presence is absolutely crucial to being self employed full time. But, health allowing, I also get out into the wilderness at least once a week, and have my shamanic practice at home as well. I do feel that many Americans could do with more time outdoors, but I don’t feel that we have to be Luddites. I *like* having the ability to access the internet on my phone at any time; not only does it help me provide better customer service, but it’s easier to carry than a traditional field guide if I want to identify a plant or animal track I find on the trail. I also think it’s rather silly for people on either side of the supposed nature/tech divide to talk as though everyone not like them isn’t doing it right; we each have to find our own balance, and snarky superiority neither advances spirit nor tech.

    As to FB, yes, it’s a bad move on their part. I am choosing to stay partly because I can still stay in touch with people there both personally and professionally, and at this point I still need all the promo opportunities I can get to keep paying the bills. I still manage to reach a decent number of people and haven’t experienced the deep cut in views even though this policy has been in place for several months and I’ve been watching my stats carefully. I figure some views are better than no views, and we’re still at a point where many people expect a business to have a FB page, so there are still enough reasons for me to stay.

    • Lupa

      I should also add that I have the luxury of a weekly hike specifically because the internet gives me the ability to be self employed and work from home.

  • http://twitter.com/TarotByArwen TarotByArwen

    Honestly, I am appalled that a publisher would blame the internet rather than pointing out the true culprit. Self-responsibility and moderation are at issue here. This sounded quite a bit like a sixth grader unhappy with their life and blaming it on everything but what it really is. “Real” magicians aren’t on Facebook? Hmmmm. I find that statement easily proven wrong. SI, go and be blessed, but don’t blame the interwebz.

  • http://www.facebook.com/taylor.ellwood Taylor Ellwood

    I suspect that most pagan publishers aren’t going to leave Facebook. Indeed most people will likely not leave Facebook, despite the changes. Why? Because its convenient to use and easier to use then other social media sites. Twitter is 140 characters of text. It’s hard to write much on it. Google + in its design isn’t exactly user friendly. You see a lot of techie people on there, but you’re probably not going to see as much adoption by other people. Pinterest is popular but its primarily picture based and people do like text.

    Facebook is convenient to use, less overwhelming than a lot of other social media, and it is focused on social interactions to a degree that I haven’t noticed in other social media. Scarlet Imprint comes off as elitist, as several others have noted and so they decide to leave the “devouring Maw” of technology (though only to a degree). Who cares? Most people probably won’t care, and the ones who do can find them on their website and peruse their blog as well as any other sites they care to be on.

    As a business owner I wouldn’t give up on Facebook. It’s one of the ways I connect with people who like my writing and want to stay connected. Indeed, its fair to say that because of social media I’ve finally connect with my audience. I think we should make our voices heard as it pertains to FB policies, but I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

  • http://solascendans.com Alex Sumner

    … whilst in other news, other occult publishers increase their market share on FB …

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