On Faith: China and Religious Freedom

Jason Pitzl-Waters —  January 20, 2011 — 44 Comments

My latest response at the Washington Post’s On Faith site is now up.

Here’s this week’s panel question:

In President Obama’s meetings with Chinese President Hu Jintao this week, should discussion of human rights and religious freedom be on par with economic and environmental issues, or should human rights and religious freedom be secondary matters?

Here’s an excerpt from my response:

I am concerned about the future of religious freedom in China. Not only because I think Tibet was done a great injustice, one that should be corrected, but because I care deeply about the millions of polytheists and pantheists who call that land home. Taoists, followers of various indigenous and imported folk religions, and syncretic mixes of all of the above lay claim to the hearts and minds of tens, possibly hundreds, of millions. Currently, China’s government sees the social value of encouraging (well-regulated) official manifestations of these faiths, but a new regressive turn isn’t impossible. Should Taoism, or various folk practices, be seen as an impediment to social and political order, their future could be imperiled. We can’t gloss that over with a down-played “concern,” quickly moving on to something else, human rights and religious freedom should be at the top of the diplomatic agenda for a country that says it values those freedoms above all else.

I hope you’ll head over to the site and read my full response, and the other panelist responses, and share your thoughts.

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Jason Pitzl-Waters

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  • Old_Warhorse

    Hell, I'm concerned about religious freedom right here in the United States of America! The way things are going, we [i]will[/i] be a "Christian Nation", at least officially, if the Tea Party and the Religious Right have there way. One only has to look at what has been going on in our military to see the writing on the wall.

    • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

      You seem to be forgetting about the Political Left, who if they have their way, will turn this into an Atheist nation with no religion.

      • Baruch Dreamstalker

        The political left want to remove mention of God — and it's always the Abrahamic God — from the spheres of government. Pursuit of religion as religion has no enemy in the political left.

      • Baruch Dreamstalker

        The political left wants to remove mention of God — and it's always the God of Abraham — from the sphere of government. It has no interest in making the nation atheist.

        • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

          Then just try to hold an open and pagan prayer at any political function or school and let me know how that works out for you.

          They only target the Abrahamic God because he's the one everyone knows and has convinced almost everyone from California to India's border that he's the only one. And the founding fathers put "god" in there to represent any divine force, not just the Abrahamic. The removal of God is there, and sooner or later the removal of all gods and goddesses will follow.

          • Khryseis_Astra

            As someone who considers themselves on the left side of the spectrum, I'm definitely not promoting an "Atheist Nation" any more than I'm about to sit by and let the "Christian Nation" people take over and run amok.

            I am, however, strongly in favor of keeping religion separated from our government. Only a secular, religiously neutral government has any hope of living up to its own ideals of treating us all as equals.

          • Tomb

            Our government should never support the Abrahamic God or Our Gods either when attempting to raise on above the other or lower the other below the other. It all needs to be on a equalstanding otherwise it will just lead to chaos.

          • http://quakerpagan.blogspot.com/ Cat_C_B

            Schools–public schools–and political functions are *ahem* within the sphere of government.

            Private schools and private functions are not targeted for religious expressions from the Left; indeed, many on the Left are affiliated with schools and gatherings noted for their religiosity. (Which, contrary to claims frequently made from the Right, is not the exclusive purview of political conservatives.)

            The concept is the separation of church and state. And I'm surprised you believe those who wish to see the Abrahamic God established in the sphere of government are more likely to welcome Pagans and Pagan religion than those who seek to make government neutral to religions. That has not been my experience…

            Of course, you are welcome to whatever flavor of politics suits your philosophy of life. But I'm not following your logic, here.

      • ES1966

        Spare use this disingenuous garbage. There is no political left in this country. We have the corporate lackey party, the Democrats, and the bigger corporate lackey party, the Republicans.

    • sarenth

      Secular does not need to equal atheist, Godless, or any of that other stuff. Secular, according to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary is:

      "a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns>
      b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music>
      c : not ecclesiastical or clerical"

      Nowhere does it say that secular = atheist. It can, but it does not need to. Having a secular government means that it "relates to the worldly" and "is not overtly or specifically religious." Sounds fine to me, given all the problems that have been had when religion controls the functions of government. Furthermore, we have less to fear from Atheists as they are, then from many Christian denominations s they are, i.e. Council for Secular Humanism vs. The Wallbuilders.

      • http://quakerpagan.blogspot.com/ Cat_C_B

        Yes, precisely.

  • http://www.occultcorpus.com Caliban

    Let's not just look at the danger of the Christian Right, or of the Red Menace or what have you. We also export a consumer culture to the world that is almost entirely devoid of any spiritual element whatsoever – except insofar as spirituality is a marketable commodity. That is as big a threat – I suspect a much bigger one – to pantheism, animism, ancestral faiths and so on. But I very much doubt it is among the concerns that the two heads of state of the world's current superpowers will discuss.

    • Baruch Dreamstalker

      If the ability of more people in India, China and Brazil to buy a car is a mortal threat to pantheism, animism and ancestral faiths, then those pathways are doomed in any event. (Which I do not for a moment believe.)

    • http://quakerpagan.blogspot.com/ Cat_C_B

      Hallelujah, Brother Caliban! Preach it!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=667952307 Jennifer Parsons

      Isn't exporting a "spiritual element" called "proselytizing"? Because Western and American Christians have been doing that in communities with pantheist, animist, and/or ancestral faiths for a few centuries now.

    • http://egregores.blogspot.com/ Apuleius

      Far from being devoid of any spiritual content whatsoever, consumer culture is the perfect vector for spreading Protestantism. You can't watch Pat Robertson without a TV, dammit! But seriously, this is true. The so-called "prosperity gospel" is one of the most powerful memes on planet earth. Please don't take my word for it, though. Do a google video search on "john tesh amway". If you dare.

  • kenneth

    The truth is we have squandered any leverage we might have had with China. We are very close to becoming a secondary power to them. We are utterly dependent upon them for the payday loans we use to finance our endless and unwinable imperial wars. They could plunge us into a 1930-style depression next week by sitting out a T-bill auction or two. Our only hope at convincing them to improve human rights is to persuade them of the (sad) reality that you CAN have an oligarchy while still maintaining some civil liberties.

    • Baruch Dreamstalker

      China would bring itself to its knees if it pulled such a stunt. The visit of the Chinese President is remarkable for the extent to which he is trying to placate us in his rhetoric.

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

    Kenneth is right. We don't have any real ground to compel China to respect the rights and liberties of its people.

    As for America, it is the Right and the Left that we must watch carefully. One would make us Christian, the other Atheist. Neither of the parties shows any respect for our religions. The only thing protecting us is the Law, and for how long that lasts considering some of the court battles, I do not know how long we shall have even that small protection.

    We need to put aside our political differences and realize that the ones we can really count on are our fellow pagans and heathens. We don't need to be infighting about politics, people, we need to be gathering ourselves together so that we can have the political and social power to protect all pagan and heathen paths, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, and we need to start coming together in communities soon so we can build partnerships with each other, put aside the drama that has all to often marked our people, and set about rebuilding our peoples and our ways of life.

    Here's a few steps I think we need to follow, with more on the way.
    http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com/2011/01/creati…
    http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com/2011/01/creati…

    • Peter

      Norse Alchemist,

      For the first time, after reading many posts I find myself in almost total agreement with your post

      • Tomb

        Seems plenty like the 60's to me.

        Though I take the venue of Frederick Douglass and deplore any attempt to not intergrate with the Union by forming off-to-the-side affiliated communities.

        While your view is valued and idealistic and I look at it with some favor I don't think the flavor of what you propose could be stomached by many Pagans, some of the reasons being what you presents is flavored toward the Norse Pagan types and would require people to move away from their jobs and families (no easy task). For myself I would certainly not fit because I hear the call of the Great Polis, the great cities of New York and DC are in my blood and my wishes to serve in the government in politics speaks true to my Hellenstic religious nature then the Heathenry your sporting for.

    • Baruch Dreamstalker

      Alchemist, it's an obstacle to Pagans gathering together in mutual support when you spout right-wing boilerplate about the political left to Pagans of the left. If you want to gather together, you can contribute by abandoning your inflammatory rhetoric.

      • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

        And where, precisely, and I spouting right wing boilerplate? Is it okay to bash one side, but not the other? Those Pagans on the Left have shown a great deal if inflammatory rhetoric of their own. I am not with any party. My political views are more inline with 7th century Norse than with any modern party. If it's about my Left will make us Atheist, then perhaps you need to look into your own side, rather than assuming they are "Pagan Friendly" or did you forget all the anti-Pagan comments from the left that have happened lately, especially during Dabble-gate. Most Left wing people I know of are either Christians or atheists. neither of which tends to have much interest in us polytheists, and the later of which believes that any belief in the supernatural is somewhere between childish foolishness and mental insanity.

        I am not speaking rhetoric, nor seeking to be inflammatory. I am merely stating the truth, that for too long politics has mixed with our religions and we need to stop that. Our kinship as pagans and heathens is more important than any political viewpoint. And the sooner we all learn that, the better chance we have of preserving our people and our ways.

      • Robin Artisson

        Man, what's wrong with you people? Hold grudges much? If he abandons his rhetoric which you personally take as "inflammatory", what will you abandon?

        Norse Alchemist wouldn't be who he was, nor true to his purpose here, if he didn't say and do what he says and does. The room he needs is allotted to him. He doesn't need a speech about changing himself or abandoning the words and messages that passion drives him towards; he needs a speech from you about how you'll accept his liberty to express himself as he sees fit, so long as he isn't violating the lives and rights of others, which I should add he is not.

        Union and solidarity isn't going to happen under the watchful aegis of our resident censors and emotional police. We aren't all going to "play nice" by the lowest common denominator's definition, nor the definitions of the "sweethearts" here.

        Unity and solidarity comes at this cost: accepting one another for who we are (so long as "who we are" doesn't include terrorism, fraud, murder, or illegal activities) and then orienting our massive collective towards our true foes, who are unquestionably the people who use monotheistic ideologies and conservative ideologies to choke out the liberties of other people.

        • Tomb

          You should be the last one talking. If you were Christian its not hard to imagine what your opinions would be.

          What I find concerned with the Left and Right religiously is that on the Right you either their religious affiliation or you should be thrice damned and cast out from the nation while with the Left they don't care about religious affiliation. While yes you get the occasional Millitant Atheist jerk.

          • Robin Artisson

            "If I were Christian"? That's sort of a flat attack, don't you think? I'm not Christian. You can imagine how things would be if some imaginary scenario really existed, but that doesn't help our conversation here, or add anything to it. I believe in liberty, and nothing I've ever said here suggests otherwise.

          • Tomb

            Your thoughts are still the same as you have expressed numrous times in flat out attacking even sympathetic Christians or pagans who you Witch Hunt as 'Secret Christians'. Its a very Zero Sum outlook.

    • Baruch Dreamstalker

      Robin, once again I've gotten a comment by email that doesn't appear on the blog page, so I have to reply in this manner.

      No grudge here. Alchemist wants to foster Pagan unity. Political slander against a wing of the Pagan population is not the way to do that. I'm not opposed to his idea (if I were I'd shut up and let him hang himself) though I do think it's idealistic.

      "Union and solidarity isn't going to happen under the watchful aegis of our resident censors and emotional police."

      Realistically they're not going to happen under any circumstances on a general basis. We may see some focused on specific issues, like joining to back Lady Liberty League. That's the extent of my optimism on this.

    • sarenth

      I agree very much with your posts and your words, but I do not agree that becoming secular would make us Atheist or that we have as much to fear from *our* Atheists as you intimate we might. I don't see where Atheism makes of us anywhere near the enemy that some denominations of Christians do. Perhaps I've not seen enough in this world, but the New Atheists (i.e. Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.), with all their fiery rhetoric, do not intimidate me or give me anywhere near the pause that many Christian groups do.

    • Tomb

      China is still very, very far away from being the number one power and as someone who has lived in China quite recently for four months I can attest to this. China has it much, much worse then the United States as itcurrently faces a series of short-term problems from their economic to political to culture to environment that even if they can overcome will not gurantee them the long term but certainly if they manage it they can set themselves up for a Chinese Century-BUT if this century if from the current government or another remains to be seen.

      Historically, China has ALWAYS throughout the last 3,000 years of its history dominated its region utterly, the last century is nothing but a hiccup. Its historically speaking a very long ranging world power. Its return on the world stage is cyclical and hopefully benefits the world stage rather then harms it.

  • Daniel

    We also have a plethora of our own problems. To name some: We are beholden to China in both trillions of dollar trade deficits, and we owe Japan and China big time for the continuing "wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq. We spend around 48 billion dollars (or more) a year for these wars with no solid plans to withdraw. Our internal infrastructures are falling a part; we are crumbling from within. Our banks and corporations see people only as numbers, and, at their whim, crooked dealings are causing families to loose their homes after these very banks and corporations have been bailed out by our tax dollars. As well, more jobs are going overseas to slave labor for "cheaper," more "efficient" labor while tens of thousands of hard workers here are being laid off, while more moneys and bonuses go into the pockets of CEO's.

    Meanwhile, our politicians are divying out benefits people have paid into for years, trying to find ways to shortchange American Citizens of unemployment and retirement benefits, etc. If these aren't human rights issues, I don't know what is. And it is happening here.

  • Malaz

    " a cop on the take…" heh, heh. Well spoken Jason.

    I noticed, while reading the comments that no one really discussed the Chyneez people. Then I realized that the reason for that is that like many Amherikhans, I too used to feel so far away from this place that "the Chynnez people" weren't really real. They were sort of a concept, or part of a story I once read.

    You're right to say that if indigenous religious practices become an annoyance for the guhvurmint here, they will be swept aside, but how different from that is what's happening in the states? Site: the Black Panthers, Site: Leonard Peltier, Site: Waco.

    I don't think the issue here is one of Chynah v. Amherikha, I think it's more like the right of every heeomun to hold beliefs which deviate from the norm v. "acceptability" regardless of how it's dealt with through cultural modality.

    M

  • Alex Pendragon

    Gaia revolves, as she has since the dawn of her birth, with no real concern for the human fleas who infest her and curry favor with the "God/s or the week", which too will pass, as have all her grand experiments, her unlucky children who win the game of natural selection only to be wiped out in the mere blink of a geologic lifespan by some hurtling chunk of rock or a sizable comet come to it's end upon her crust. Why do we worry so much about who is purest of thought or chosen of devine favor when even now our greedy, short-sighted and aparently pointless intellect has resulted in nothing ultimately better than artificially-induced mass extintions and climate change? OK, fine, YOUR god/gods/godesses/brand of personal computor is THE only way to truth………for what good it will do you.

  • http://norsealchemist.blogspot.com Norse Alchemist

    Dreamstalker, I can see where you would consider my statements to be "boilerplate." I must, however, point out that I heard you speaking no such words about those on the right turning this into a Christian nation. I wonder why?

    Perhaps making the nation Publicly Atheistic (in terms of government and such) is not turning the nation atheistic. However, my statements about how the political Left (if not the totally of its members) view all religion still stand. This is not boiler plate, this is things I have observed on my own from sources that view the Left in high regard.

    You say my political slander against a wing of the Pagan population will not bring unity. You are right, except that I do not slander the Pagans, but merely point out that it would be best if we forgo our "political" identity in favor of our "religious" identity. It is perhaps true that I do not attack the right as often as the left, but I do attack it. If I attack the left, it is because too often I see it held up as the paragon of virtue and dogmatically held as the only way to go. I feel this is not so. WE are Pagans and Heathens, Why should we stick to either one path or the others. We do not work in a dualistic system, we can take a third option, or a fourth, or a fifth. Why should we be Right or Left? Why must we so dogmatically hold to political ideologies that have no respect for us? Who see us only as votes to be counted, numbers to be manipulated and twisted till we give to one side and bash the other with the fervor of monotheistic zealots? When did politics become our Gods and Goddesses, rather than the divine beings themselves. When did Democrats and Republicans become our people, over Wiccans, Asatruar, Satanists, Odinists, Druids, etc?

    When did it become that Pagan would threaten Pagan with death, simply because they held a different political viewpoint? Is this what we are? Is this what we all began walking this path to become? I became a heathen because the gods of my people called to me, bid me welcome, and said I was kin. That it didn't matter if i was right or left, republican or democrat, capitalist or socialist. That I was something beyond the petty, venality of politics, that I had family and spirituality that transcended time and space. And that it wasn't just me, it was every other person, from the solo practitioner to the coven, from the Scandinavian to the Greek to the Roman to the Celt to the Slav and Baltic. That we were taking back and rebuilding something that had been stolen away by fire and blood and a selfish, petty god that thought he alone could rule everything. That we didn't have to act petty and childish. That we could be the start of something old made new again.

    But all to often I see none of that. I see people being petty when they should be honorable. I see people bashing the right, bashing those who defend the right, and bashing people like me who don't bash the right or defenders of the right as much as they think I should. I see people getting death threats and told that they aren't "really pagans" because they don't believe the same as everyone else and jump on the "correct" political bandwagon.

    Do we want to survive? Do we want our ways to be passed on for generations to come? To honor the gods and goddesses until the sun goes nova and then some as we spread beyond this little world? Then we have to put aside the politics. Call against those politicians if you will, but do it against everyone. No playing favorites. Respect our kin on all sides of the political spectrum and remember that We are Pagan and Heathens, Children of the Gods and Goddess, before we are anything political!

    It's time we stopped frothing at the mouth like berserks without a lick of sense in their head other than killing the "enemy" and remember that it wasn't politics that brought us to our paths! It was our need to step away from the petty and the venal ways of the other religions, like Christianity, which have so infected this nation, this world, and its politics. It's time we became more, not less.

    The Goddesses don't care who you vote for.
    The Gods don't give a s*** what your political orientation is.

    So why should we? We are people, they are people, they are no better or worse than we are. Move past the politics and remember what is important. Our people and our paths, Not our politics.

    • http://quakerpagan.blogspot.com/ Cat_C_B

      "When did it become that Pagan would threaten Pagan with death, simply because they held a different political viewpoint?"

      Well, on one level, I suspect that would be back in pre-Christian times. Politics and political strife being a far older invention than Christianity.

      On another, dealing with modern Paganism… did I miss a death threat somewhere? For that matter, did I miss some mouth frothing going on?

      • Don

        Not positive, but I think he may be referring to the death threats Cara has been receiving via e-mail from pagans who are not too fond of her politics.

        • Crystal7431

          She's been getting death threats? That's appalling.

    • Baruch Dreamstalker

      Alchemist, I don't get upset by claims the Right is trying to shove Christianity down our throats because those claims are true. Your claim about the Left is false; agnosticizing government is not the same a making all of society atheistic.

      I agree that some on the Left have a pissy attitude about religion in general, and nobody on that side covered themselves with glory regarding Christine O'Donnell. So? I'm not looking for perfect fidelity in allies; reasonable reliability will do just fine. Think about the work Americans United has done to help advance Pagan religious rights. Think about the consistent rejection on the Left of the efforts of some on the Right to Christianize us.

      That's just speaking as a Pagan. On a host of issues — the poor, abortion, gay rights, affirmative action, etc — I find those who share my opinions on the Left. I'm not going to file for divorce because of a few rhetorical banana peels regarding a topic they haven't thought about much.

  • Crystal7431

    Thanks again Jason for speaking with such a brilliant succinctness. You certainly have a way with the pen- er… the keyboard.

  • http://dawa_lhamo_9@livejournal.com Sarah

    Thank you so much for this, Jason. It’s a tricky issue, human and religious rights in China, but it’s something I’ve always been passionate about – especially concerning Tibet (having known refugees; studied, practiced, eaten with them).

    Part of the problem in encouraging broader religious freedom and improved human rights in China has to do with the concept of “face”. It is extremely important to China not to lose “face” for any reason, over any issue, not to mention the tender subject of religious and ethnic minorities in China. They cannot be shamed into any sort of agreement. Obama will be an excellent statesman indeed if he can *actually* discuss the subject without causing any loss of face.

    You are right, we have been told time and time again that bringing China closer to us economically will naturally improve their human rights record. That was the tune when Clinton granted Most Favored Nation trading status to China, as I remember. I really don’t think it’s been working. (And would welcome a meaningful solution.) It just feels hypocritical to swallow our ethical qualms and continue to do business on the *hope* that *maybe* our “good example” will rub off on them.

    And yes, we do have improvements of our own that should be pursued, and not just for their own sake.

    All in all, an excellent article. Good points.

  • Tomb

    China is still very, very far away from being the number one power and as someone who has lived in China quite recently for four months I can attest to this. China has it much, much worse then the United States as itcurrently faces a series of short-term problems from their economic to political to culture to environment that even if they can overcome will not gurantee them the long term but certainly if they manage it they can set themselves up for a Chinese Century-BUT if this century if from the current government or another remains to be seen.

    Historically, China has ALWAYS throughout the last 3,000 years of its history dominated its region utterly, the last century is nothing but a hiccup. Its historically speaking a very long ranging world power. Its return on the world stage is cyclical and hopefully benefits the world stage rather then harms it.

  • Baruch Dreamstalker

    Alchemist: Your response to my reply to your comment, seems to have disappeared, so am using this for an answer.

    The idea that the POLITICAL Left is trying to impose atheism, is not true. It's right-wing boilerplate. When you say it, you are spouting right-wing boilerplate, even if you're sincere.

    You may have found a taste for public atheism on the PAGAN Left. I haven't heard anything like that but I hang out with UU Pagans and so probably wouldn't.

    In trying to agnosticize the governmental sphere, the political Left targets the God of Abraham because he's the one being pushed down the public throat. It's not like the Left has diverse targets and picked one.

  • Baruch Dreamstalker

    Alchemist, you wrote:

    "Then just try to hold an open and pagan prayer at any political function or school and let me know how that works out for you."

    My Handfasting was in a public park in a small Ohio town. Of course, it's a college town…

  • Crystal7431

    "It just feels hypocritical to swallow our ethical qualms and continue to do business on the *hope* that *maybe* our "good example" will rub off on them." I don't necessarily think we do business with them in hopes that our good example will rub off. I think we do business with them because they produce plenty of stuff at an inexpensive price and the "good rubbing off" is just an excuse to keep doing it.