Sacrificing The Frosts

Jason Pitzl-Waters —  June 25, 2007 — 45 Comments

AJ Drew, a Wiccan author and founder of the online community Pagan Nation, is planning on holding a “human sacrifice” of Gavin and Yvonne Frost (founders of the Church and School of Wicca) in effigy at this year’s International Real Witches Ball.

The Frosts with hypothetical depiction of effigies.

“On October 27, 2007 at Midnight I will be conducting a ritual entitled A Sacrifice to Caring in which I will sacrifice Gavin and Yvonne Frost in effigy. In this rite, I will introduce the Familial Heathen path / Familial Heathenry to the public. The event will take place during The International Real Witches Ball. My wife and I believe that due to the tremendous number of pacifists in the modern pagan community, such an action will probably lower attendance tremendously. However, we feel the statement must be made and despite being advised to the contrary, we are moving ahead with our plans. We believe that being parents and sending an absolutely clear message Gavin and Yvonne Frost and their ilk will not be welcome in at least our small portion of the community is more important than numbers. However, if you agree we urge you to join us in this struggle to change the modern pagan community.”

This hostility towards the Frosts stems from a chapter of their book “Good Witch’s Bible” (which has been in and out of print since the 70s) in which the methods for ritually deflowering pubescent boys and girls is described.

“It is hoped by Wicca that the first full sexual experience will take place in the plesant[SIC] surroundings of the coven and that the spiritual as well as the physical aspects of the experience will lead the child to a complete life.”

This passage, and others like it (including directions on creating wooden phalli) has lead Drew on a quest to have the Frosts ostracized from the larger Pagan/Wiccan community. This lead him into conflict with Craft elder Raymond Buckland (since patched up) due to his past endorsement of the Frosts, and an open disdain for anyone in the Pagan community who has worked with them (and hasn’t recanted of doing so). Drew also believes that the chapter isn’t hypothetical/imagined and that the Frost’s organization is actively engaged in child molestation and abuse, but that abuse claims were ignored due to the “Satanic Panic” backlash.

“It is my opinion that there have been numerous victims of the Church and School of Wicca. That due to the enormous emotional strain such events have placed on these individuals, many of them have found themselves in the “Satanic Panic Industry” and have been overlooked due to their outrageous claims.”

One wonders where this will go next, Drew insists that a civil suit against the Frosts for the promotion of child molestation would hold up, so is legal action coming soon? Will the wider Pagan community take a stand against the Frosts as anger and outrage builds? The building and destroying of effigies (that symbolize real people) at a Pagan event is certainly a new twist, will others be inspired by this and allow for public “sacrifices” of those they believe to be anathema? It should be interesting to see where this course of action leads.

NOTE: This blog repudiates any endorsement of child abuse or molestation. I certainly don’t endorse the Frost’s “initiation” methods in any sense of the term. Having said that, I feel I should point out that there has been no physical proof that the Frosts have actually engaged in (or supervised) any of the practices they have written about (though it is the opinion of some that they have).

Jason Pitzl-Waters

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  • Sara

    It’s true that merely publishing that sort of thing isn’t illegal. I do think it’s irresponsible, and that the Frosts have a moral responsibility to retract it. I think less of them because of it.On the other hand, I also think AJ Drew is an attention hound who latched onto this as a way to drum up publicity. He’s always picking a fight with somebody, and sacrificing someone in effigy is arguably just as bad as writing about deflowering teenagers…in that no real person gets hurt, but it creates encouragement for people who might do real harm.

  • Mam Adar

    Bizarre as I find that passage from the Frosts’ book, I am not at all sure where Drew is getting the idea that “children” as young as ten may be involved. Is puberty actually starting that young nowadays? I’ll bet it didn’t in 1972. For me, at least, “a stage where the physical attributes of reproduction are present” implies adolescence–someone mature enough to breed, if not old and responsible enough to vote or drive a car in most states–and there’s a big difference between a child and an adolescent.

  • Anonymous

    This seems like hysteria to me; a pagan version of the “Satanic abuse” panic. Attitudes were much different when that book was written. Nor is sacrifice supposed to be punishment in any version of modern paganism I am aware of.

  • Anonymous

    might I suggest you throw Bromwyn on the fire as well…..I have long since been disgusted with the Frost and their teachings….I am with Ya A.J.how can you suggest it is panic in this book it states that a girl of 13 should be deflowered…. Gavin Frost is a perverted old man who could not make it as a christian and his rancid wife is a enabler…Lady Elyria

  • Anonymous

    In response to what Mam Adar said: yes, quite often puberty does begin at 10 these days, or even 9 or 8, particularly for females and particularly in the United States. The exact reason isn’t known – hormone-affecting pollutants? increased body fat leading to increased estrogen production? – but it’s so. So yes, people reading this now probably are imagining much younger persons than in ’72.I’m not shocked by the idea of people in their mid-teens losing their virginity – most do, by all statistics. And I do think that some effort ought be made to see that this is a generally wholesome experience. I don’t think the Frosts proposed method is any way of doing that, and I doubt I’ll find many people who’d disagree. It sounds to me like Frost had been reading some anthropological works on puberty rituals in certain tribal cultures, and practiced the sort of brainless eclecticism one so often sees in modern paganisms. Invented customs tend to be absurd and/or damaging to the extent that their inventor failed to take realistic account of how humans actually think and behave, and this is an example par excellence. I can well imagine some abusers putting a religious gloss on their actions, and I’ve heard accounts of first sexual experiences involving pagan rites of some sort; but I can’t see the Frosts’ scenario playing out as intended, and I don’t seriously believe it’s actually been tried. That said, I do think the Frosts ought to be taken to task; I don’t think, however, that burning in effigy is a productive way to do that.

  • Anonymous

    Is puberty actually starting that young nowadays? I’ll bet it didn’t in 1972.“As a anecdotal aside, it did for me in 1974. I was early compared to most girls, but not freakishly so. This is only intended as a data point, not to support either AJ Drew or the Frosts.

  • Erik

    I know women in their 40s who entered puberty at 9 or 10.

  • Anonymous

    “…a girl of 13…”In the 1950s a girl of 13 could be married in some US states. The book is probably wrong-headed, but no more so than a great many other things of its time.

  • Anonymous

    You could at least spell their daughter’s name right. And if Gavin and Yvonne were pedophiles, etc., why hasn’t she come forward to point the finger? Maybe because Gavin and Yvonne are not such beasts? It is my understanding that the passage in the GWB also discusses male issues as well as female. Quite frankly, you don’t seem at all concerned with the boys. Do your children use the internet? They are exposed to sexual information there. Do your children watch tv? They are exposed to sexual information there and far more so than a controversial passage in a book. I guess some “Witches” CAN be compared to Nazis.

  • LiLi LaVeau

    I’m 47…in 1972 I was 12….I entered puberty (began menses) at age 9, as did most of my female friends…so *Yes* girls *do* begin *that early*. I grew up in a “Witchy Family”, so I have been “pagan/heathen/Witch” all my life. I was taught about the Frosts early on, and in my family, and in the families of my Pagan friends, they are frowned upon. I don’t like what they say about girls AND I don’t like what they say about boys in regards to “deflowering” them. Yes, children are exposed to a great deal of sexual content in many formats in this day; but, that still does not make what the Frosts put forth acceptable. (Because there *ARE* morons out there who *WILL* USE that bit to satisfy their own desires)I don’t think burning them in effigy is productive in any way though. Wellll…..that is…unless you’re just wanting to “stir the pot”. 😉

  • Rev. T. Monkey

    “Because there *ARE* morons out there who *WILL* USE that bit to satisfy their own desires”I would hate to think that this is becoming the new criterion for adjudicating these issues. Morons seeking to satisfy their desires will do so regardless of the justifications an author may have provided. This standard (i.e., that some people can’t handle access to something) has been used to criminalize cannabis, ephedra, entheogenic mushrooms, etc., and taken to its logical consequence should prohibit just about everything (because, hey, after all, there are morons who can’t handle ANYTHING). Can’t we focus our energies on pursuing actual criminals, rather than on demonizing folks for publishing unpopular opinions? And when did free speech become such a hard concept to grasp?

  • Caroline Tully

    I remember when I first read this section of the Frost’s book, about defloweing virgins. I thought it had the potential for extreme sleaziness. It’d be the equivalent of my father getting one of his friends to deflower me, no thanks, I’d rather get my own deflowerer. Although as another person said to me, there were ideas in experimental utopian communal groups (not Wiccan) of the first half of the 20th century that the first sexual experience of a nubile girl being with an older, more experienced man who could “teach” her *was* the very best way to introduce a young-un to sex. I wasn’t convinved however, it depends on how old this deflowerer is. (This is reminding me of J.M.Auel’s “Earth’s Children” books where Jondalar was known for being very good at his deflowering job!)As for the Frosts’ other recommendation of female initiates to the coven having to wear a dildo inside their vagina for several days before their initiation, I thought that was a) a litle unnecessary and b) potentially sexist – I mean if a woman has to do such a thing, surely a male initiate should wear, say, a doughnut, over his penis? Its only fair.

  • Anonymous

    Something that seems to be getting lost in all this is that the Real Witches’ Ball is just that a ball. Aren’t people going to this, at least in some sense, to have a good time? I would never go to a party that I thought was only going to end up being a platform for someone’s ranting and raving. There may be a time and a place for what AJ is doing, but I really think a Witches’ Ball is not it.

  • Caroline Tully

    I need to add that although I think the Frost’s particular practices – real or only written about – under discussion at the moment are kind of weird, I must also say that ostracising them from the “Wican/Pagan community” is a bit extreme. I’d like to ask, “Who is a Witch” and “Who gets to define who is a Witch”? What exactly _is_ the “Wican/Pagan community” and who decides who is in or out of it? What if you never thought of yourself as a member of that “community” are you then in, or out? What if others think you are in, but you don’t, or vice versa? Is A.J.Drew the one to determine what is a real, acceptable Witchcraft practice? What if I don’t like something that A.J.Drew does, am I entitled to rally others to burn him in effigy? I don’t think so. This discussion provides public attention for both Drew and the Frosts, whatever the outcome.

  • Carol Maltby

    Just to make sure everyone is literally on the same page here…Jason has this blog set up with two different comment sections. This one uses the Blogger comment form, and the other uses the Haloscan form. The postingsare quite different in the two comment sections.I’m seeing a lot of comments here, especially from anonymous posters, which indicate that people are posting without a good grasp of the facts of the situation. I’d urge anyone reading here to also read all the comments in the Haloscan section, so you can better put this controversial information in context and understand some of the facts that underlie the emotional responses this issue has raised.

  • Mama Bear

    A few comments- first being, if one is to argue the freedom of speech issue, one must also defend Mr. Drew’s POV as such freedoms not only protect the right to write bizarre initiation ceremonies, but they also protect the right to protest such writings. Second point- the average age of first menses, even in the 70’s, was indeed possible as young as 10. (Mine was 9) Average age during that time was probably around 12. Regardless, the imbalance in power/authority between a just-pubescent child and that of a coven elder is such that the minor could not give consent to such a ritual. Third comment- I think that alot has been misconstrued regarding Mr. Drew’s intentions with such a rite. To my understanding of the situation- it seems as if all that is being said is that such practices are NOT OK and should be viewed as unacceptable to the Pagan community. If there is ANYTHING that we Pagans should be able to agree on- I’d think that would be the one- that ‘raping/molesting/harming children is bad’. As to the method- reading further into the subject, it sounds as if Mr Drew is suggesting an ‘outsider offering’- that of casting the effigies outside of the circle, or symbolically removing the teachings from the community. I don’t read anything (seriously) about buring images in parking lots or any such nonsense. The bottom line- I think ANY parent is going to get riled at this subject.

  • Eddy

    … because nothing says, “I’m a greater moral authority” than reenacting a HUMAN SACRIFICE!!!!AJ Drew needs to get his ducks in a row. The Frosts suggesting alternative sexual rites of passage are no different than him suggesting they should be sacrificed for their views…. and if AJ Drew really understood the issue of sacrifice, then he would understand that when you make an effigy of something and sacrifice it, you’re asking for more of it – that was the original reason for the wicker man burning rituals. So is he trying to magically manifest MORE people like the Frosts?There are so many things wrong with his stance that it just reeks of publicity stunt.

  • Garan du

    The book in question is decades old. This fight against the Frosts is likewise decades old and lies uneasily in its grave, in part because the Frosts themselves keep bringing up a greatly skewed and incomplete version of what took place at every opportunity. One can certainly find fault with the Frosts and their methods. Some have described their church as a cult (in the modern, negative, sense of the word). It is without a doubt homophobic despite their efforts to position themselves as otherwise. But this is all well-tread ground. I note that these facts did not stop AJ Drew from selling the Frosts books at his Columbus shop, including the tome in question (I know this because I bought a copy of it there in the late 1990s). Burning the Frosts in effigy reopens a nasty wound in the history of Witchcraft without in a manner that makes reasoned dialogue on the subject impossible. It places the occult community in a poor light with the public at large. And it entangles the attendees of this event, many of them newbies and uninformed dabblers, in an act of negative magick directed against others who have done nothing to them. In short, it is a very bad idea from start to finish, even as a publicity stunt, which in all likelihood is what this is.One certainly wonders why Drew seems intent on tilting at the windmills of the distant past. Perhaps it is because his career in the occult community is on the wane with the passing of his store. Regardless of the reason, this is a fight by a person with a long history of not playing well with others in the community, and of exagerrating the perceived slights inflicted upon him by others. Other authors and people of reasonable mien would do well to distance themselves from it.

  • Anonymous

    Magick is not always spells and candles.For 30 some odd years, the Frosts have been befriended and promoted by such folk as Janet and Stewart Farrar, Isaac Bonewitz, Patricia Telesco, Raymond Buckland, and the list goes on. After a long heartfelt discussion with Raymond Buckland, who was about to endorse a book by the Frosts, I caused Dr. Buckland to reconsider and withdraw his endorsement. Per Dr. Buckland, it was not until my antics that he became aware that the Frosts continued to sell The Good Witches Bible with its content. In short, the antics that many have chosen to attack have had the positive effect of removing at least the endorsement of Dr. Raymond Buckland. That alone is worth every effort thus far. Now it is I who am causing this discussion of the Frost’s and their obscenity.Pagan Pride festivals still promote Gavin and Yvonne Frost as does Starwood, Sirius Rising, Brushwood, and other festivals / organizations. Patricia Telesco has posted joyful articles to The Witches Voice about the Frost’s activities at pagan events along with children’s activities. A special letter of outreach to parents of children interested in Wicca has been issued by the Frosts. Despite the fact that the FBI raided a chartered organization of Gavin and Yvonne’s Church and School of Wicca to discover under aged sex and drugs, despite the fact that much of their book is quoted again and again for anybody to read: http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/Despite all of this, Gavin and Yvonne Frost continue to be promoted, befriended, and held in very high esteem by members of the pagan community. That is not my will & thus I shall use magick to cause change in conformity with my will. I quote Aleister Crowley from Magick in Theory and Practice:”It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take ‘magical weapons’, pen, ink, and paper; I write ‘incantations’–these sentences–in the ‘magical language’ i.e., that which is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth ‘spirits’, such as printers, publishers, booksellers, and so forth, and constrain them to convey my message to these people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of magick by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will.”I have tried contacting organizations, which promote the Frosts. They have ignored me. I have tried to contact the Frosts themselves, they have ignored me. I have tried contacting the authors who promote them. With the exception of Dr. Raymond Buckland (bless you sir), they have ignored me, favoring to continue their friendship with the Frosts business as usual. I believe that is the core of the matter; business.I have been advised by the owner of my last publisher against making waves because he believes I have harmed my book sales by doing so. I have since discontinued any communication with New Page Books. I have been advised by Patricia Telesco not to speak out against them and my friendship with her fell shortly there after. I have been warned about the tight association between the Church of All Worlds, The Association for Consciousness Elevation and the folk at Brushwood / Sirius Rising and have spoken with other authors who have been politically assassinated by such tight groups. But I feel I have the edge on this sort of intimidation because I simply do not care about profiting from my books. I am free of such threats because it is not business as usual in my house. Approximately a year ago, I received a traumatic brain injury and will likely never write professionally again. I write this now with my wife’s help. I am in the process of instructing my agent to forward all royalty checks that I will receive for books written on the subject of Wicca to a charity which protects children who have been the victim of sexual abuse and rape. In short, there is nothing short of a lawsuit from the Frosts which could possibly close my mouth and I welcome that as it will simply bring further attention to what they have done and who has promoted them over the past three plus decades.In so far as the accusations that what I am planning is just as bad as what they have done, I find this laughable, as I have not shared a single detail of what I am planning on doing. The practice of symbolically taking human life in modern day pagan ritual is common. As I understand it, it has been included in the Feminist Witchcraft traditions by Z. Budapest in rituals to aid the recovery of women who have been raped. It has been included in Gardnerian, Alexandrian, and other traditions as the form of the Oak King and Holly King. It is the very center of the festivities at the Burning Man gathering. Outside of the pagan community, the symbolic taking of human life has been participated in by hundreds of politicians, businessmen, and lawyers including Presidents of the United States of America at the Bohemian Grove. It continues to be a part of pep rallies and home coming activities in our public schools & Catholics reenact the Stations of the Cross (the murder of their savior) en mass. So while I can certainly respect a person’s opinion, it seems that the society in which we live condones such activity. On the other hand, I do not think the average citizen of my country supports the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) or other people / organizations who promote the raping of children.My conclusion is that I have the moral high ground on this one & those who continue to support the Frosts are about to loose great favor with much of the world as their dirty little secret is about to become public knowledge. Sure, there are a few folk who will take the stance that what I am doing is evil, immoral, or otherwise unethical; but as they have absolutely no idea what I have planned and as they are speaking about the man who coined the phrase Blood Sacrifice (sacrifice meaning to make holy) to refer to a donation of blood to the Red Cross, well I think they will find themselves looking rather foolish when things are all done and said.There is a lively discussion of this at http://www.PaganNation.com in forum format. Some take one side, others take a different side, but the one thing that is clear is that what the Frosts wrote and those who have supported, promoted, and befriended them these many years is no longer a secret. In fact, it is one of the hottest topics on the internet, which was exactly what I intended when I announced my intentions.In closing, I thank you for discussing this matter openly as it further brings to attention what the Frosts have written and who has promoted them.A.J. Drew

  • Di

    A.J. Drew needs to 1: Get the names of the people he goes off ranting about correct. The name of the woman who pulled out of the Witches’ Ball is NOT Lisa McShirley, it’s Lisa McSherry. Thus far, he’s given me no reason to take this seriously at all, because he just sounds like another unhinged fundie.2. He needs to figure out that signing up to go to a Witches Ball is not taking a magical oath. It’s a contract. It can be cancelled. Unless it was done on some kind of magic paper with “You are signing an OATH” he needs to get over it. What he’s doing is questionable. People are questioning it, and choosing whether or not to participate according to their own values.3. He needs to GROW UP. The Pagan culture in the US is NOT a community of shared values. I will address the Frosts thing last, as it’s an entirely seperate issue from this. This IS a publicity stunt – yes, any funds from this directly may be going to a children’s charity, but c’mon, the way he’s carrying on, he’s clearly hoping to outline his name and raise his profile. I’m a business owner and a marketer myself; you can do a lot of crazy stuff for charity just for the attention it draws to all your other ventures. I’m sure there will be some chest pounding over this about “his word” and frankly, given the other behaviors he seems to be exhibiting, I just can’t take him seriously or treat him with respect, because he is SO disrespectful that he isn’t exploring the reasoning of those who *dare* disagree with him.4. He needs to realize that this stunt of his is damaging his own cause. Pedophilia is a serious, serious issue that still has not been addressed in an effective way in the United States. The way he’s carrying on, it’s making the entire issue a joke, a point for comedy, and I really think that if he is sincere about this act, his behavior on the way to it is actively harming those he would help.Do I think he should do the ritual? Yes. He’s convinced of it. But he also better suck it up and realize that a lot of people aren’t going to support him on this, and the more he rails at those who object, the more he comes off as an intolerant bully. Tolerance is a two way street – isn’t this entire ritual of his about people who were denied their own sacrosanct right to say no?This is just one more example of why I’m finding it embarrassing to admit that I’m Pagan, and why I’m forever avoiding my own “people.” Shameful, all of it.

  • Anonymous

    AJ is well known for his publicity stunts, and this just seems to be another one.He creates the situation, places himself in the center of it, he’s always on the side of what’s right, intentionally causes a division among the Pagan Community by having them “take sides,” and then plays the victim – all in the name of getting attention (he’s a Leo). Believe me, before it’s all through he will play the victim if he has not done so already – it’s his M.O.Really he has already succeded to a point, in that he is the center of attention. Like Bush, he creats an “either your with me, or aganist me” sideshow.As to 1st Amendment Rights – everyone should have them. Drew has as much right to speak as do the Frost’s, Nazi’s, the KKK, gw bush, you and I, everyone. You cannot censor the right of anyone to speak or you take away everyone’s right.Some may remember when the Frost’s came to Columbus in ’72’ (or was it 73?), and were confronted by Lord Merlin. Most of the people attending left the lecture that day. The next day the Frost’s left town and, to my knowledge, have never returned.AJ’s own posts show his lack of understanding as to Magick, Will vs will, Magic vs Magick, Ritual, Sacrifice, and just about everything else. Using Crowley’s example of Magick clearly shows his complete misunderstanding of it – the difference between will (desire / whim – Magic), which is changeable, and Will (True Will, or one’s True Purpose for Being – Magick), which is constant.One poster mentioned that this discussion shouldn’t be about AJ but what the Frost’s wrote 35 years ago. Why then is it just as much about Drew as the Frost’s? Because that’s the way he wants it – the center of attention – and has made it thus (a true act of Magic).I know that the Frost’s have done some good things and have said, maybe even done, some bad things. Personally I did not carry their books at my shop because of my personal OPINION but I did not spread rumours about them, or get people stirred up, either; I would instead direct people to other authors.Neither Rape nor molestation is acceptable in any way, shape, or form but I think that our (The Pagan Community at large) energy would do more good directed at such groups as NAMBLA than at the Frost’s; even letters to the Frost’s publisher would be more effective (if not less dramatic), or just don’t buy their books, or both – but this is obviously too simple of an approach. It seems more productive, somehow, to get everyone all worked up and fighting amongst themselves instead.How about forming a group called, say, Pagans Aganist Child Abuse? I’d wagger that most people could get behind such a movement. Hell, it might even get of few of us together.L.V.X93/93Blessed BeShadow

  • Anonymous

    Lord Shadow, so let me see if I understand your post. I do not have a clue about how magick works, but I have just performed a feet of magick. I have been very respectful of you on the internet, I am sorry you do not afford me the same.Concerning names and spelling, I suffer from a traumatic brain injury. I am lucky I can type.A.J. Drew

  • Anonymous

    Lord Shadow (a book dealer) should know that Godolphin House is owned and operated by Gavin and Yvonne Frost. As that is the current publisher of the book, well you see where I am going.

  • Anonymous

    As a Bookdealer you do not usually know who knows a Publishing House.In lieu of contacting the Publisher, contact the distributors (like Weiser, New Leaf, Book people, etc).I would sign such a Petition.L.V.X.93/93Blessed BeShadow

  • Anonymous

    AJ,Re-read part of the post. You have done a feat of Magic as opposed to Magick; unless you have discovered your True Will as being to prevent child abuse.Regardless of how the the word Magick is thrown around, there is quite a difference between Magic (will as in reslove as opposed to Will, whim, and desire) and Magick (True Will, One’s sole purpose for Being).As harsh as you may feel my comments were, I found them to be as respectful as you have been to others over the years (including myself).As per your request, we will always be as good of friends as we always were. Part of this is due to others, partly due to me, and partly due to you but there it is.Personally, after I read the book in question back in 72 or 73, I never bothered to read another book by the Frost’s – they did not represent what I though of as being Wicca. I still do not recommend their works, and I did not carry them at the shop due to my views as a Pagan and as a Father (Yes, I took it upon myself to censor what I sold to some degree).I think you could have acheived your goal by other, less hostile, actions but I know you have your own way of doing things. You could STILL could get better results by another methods but I know you are determined (will).I too would like to see the Frost’s at least recant certain passages but both you and I know about being stubborn.I would still suggest forming a group against child abuse – I’d support it and I’m sure most people would … that would be one step closer.Good LuckL.V.X.93/93Blessed BeShadow

  • Bronwyn Frost

    #1Better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and erase all doubt.The problem here is that open and honest communication regarding my parents is not happening. Every time someone jumps into the fray to defend my parents, they are threatened. This is unreasonable and typifies “playground bully” behavior that we have seen before. The people levelling the accusations have nothing more than a few words written 35 years ago to base those accusations upon. Yes, Gavin and Yvonne have made comments regarding these words written 35 years ago, not a retraction, but comments. These comments are not worded acceptably for the playground bullies. Everything that has been said and done by Gavinand Yvonne is up for detraction by a few people who get very worked up over their personal lurid imaginations.What are you learning about as you think this through?

  • Bronwyn Frost

    You know what I see as I think this through? #2 Fear AND a lack of #3 faith.Jason, since you are monitoring, would you like to interview any-one of us for your site? This seems to be driving some traffic for you so it might be worthwhile.I feel so badly for the children of the person/people pushing these ideas for a couple of reasons — these people are spending a LOT of time on the internet, I suspect to the detriment of their family lives; and because they have nothing better to do than to increase their fame by denigrating other people. This is some scarey karma.During 9/11, no offense intended to anyone, there was a lot of conversation about bin Laden and working magic to bin Laden’s detriment. We wrote at that time that maybe magickal workings against binLaden weren’t such a hot idea. Why? Because you magically tie yourself to the recipient. Someone, somewhere involved in this has a whole lot of karma to work out. Do you wish to reincarnate many lifetimes to help this person work this out just because you were hurt and angry at the time? Again, a response out of fear. Why not try some positive magical work — release of fear, grief, anger workings FOR the “pagan nation” instead of against binLaden. bin Laden, ultimately has his own karma to work out and I would not like to be tied to him or the hundreds of people who worked magic that week against him. That’s a very tangled web that may take many generations to resolve.

  • Bronwyn Frost

    Which leads me back to fear and, next, Mr. Potter and Ms. Rowling.When Christian groups state how much they are afraid of HP, it’s pretty clear that most of that comes from a lack of reasonable faith teaching in the home and fear that, because the family has left “faith” loopholes, that HP could recruit their not so faith-full children. HP is simply a “coming of age” series with a Witchy imagination. I like the books since I was the only little Witch for miles for many years and my son likes the books mainly b/c they are entertaining. He doesn’t think of them as teaching religion either.If you as a parent show your religion by gossiping and not teaching, then you are teaching gossip (and fear). Live with and by faith. Don’t be afraid of some curmudgeonly old man on the street. I feel sorry for the sons and daughters who believe, now, that Wicca is a religion of fear and hate, because that is what is being taught here.I think open and honest discussion is welcome. This discussion has provoked more discussion between my parents, my husband, and myself and it reinforces for me that if I didn’t have Wicca as a faith and learned my faith here, from these blogs and the words of some of the writers represented, I would not be Wiccan. I am Wiccan and proud and I am proud to be my parents’ daughter. I am proud that they have taken the stand they did and that they have not wavered in their strength and faith that honest information about pagan practices are relevant to the discussion today.

  • Bronwyn Frost

    Which leads me to the reality in which I live:I have children to take care of presently. I have to go pack to go camp and work and I have a plumbing company to run. I won’t be present to be flamed until August. Good luck and blessed be, ya’ll

  • fenix

    I’m wondering why I haven’t been contacted yet in this controversy. You see, my parents were involved with the Frosts from ’72 until ’78, and if anyone would have been a “victim,” it would have been myself, my brother, or Bronwyn. I would have been a prime candidate, according to what I’ve been reading. I was a prepubescent girl of eleven in 1977. And yet, . . . I appreciate what Bronwyn had to say here. I would be more than happy to talk to anyone about my years with the Frosts and what I experienced during that time. I’m afraid, however, there would be great disappointment since I was never “ritually deflowered.” I don’t know of anyone that ever was.I believe I have a better grasp on the facts than most concerning this whole “controversy.” It pains me to see these accusations being thrown about without any real facts to back them up. Accusations are easy – please produce facts.

  • Lore

    I don’t know the facts of what the Frosts practice, though I don’t personally follow a similar path I do believe they have the right to free speech, as does AJ Drew.For anyone interested Shelter for Darkness has resources and information on the fight against Domestic Violence and Child Abuse.http://www.shelterfordarkness.com/The idea of ritual deflowering is a bit disturbing to me. I don’t think it’s idyll at all. From a psychological stand point simply because one is capable of reproducing does not mean they are mentally capable of dealing with sex. We all come to this place at different times and certainly being in a nurturing environment helps, but to be coerced into sex simply because one is deemed ‘ready’ is abhorrent. Not to mention the issue of sexual orientation (imagine the horror of being gay and forced into straight sex, or vice versa).While I have conflicting feelings on the matter – I became sexually active at a young age and even had relations with people much older than myself – I recognize that no child, or adolescent, is truly capable of saying no with all confidence. Very few young people have the presence of mind to really defend themselves from sexual situations. Even if they manage to say no and fend off any advances, the emotional damage is still there.I would directly address Bronwyn’s idea of spells and karma. When I cast a spell for bin Laden, and all so-called terrorists, to find peace and forgiveness for those who have wronged their people (make no mistake, through Iran-Contra and the stance on Isreal, the US has greatly wronged the Middle East), I am not entangling myself in their karma anymore than I would by wishing a stranger good luck on the street. Why would we be punished for an act of good will? I don’t believe the gods to be so tricky or callous.Though some may argue, no good deed goes unpunished, hmm?

  • A.J. Drew

    Lord Shadow – Concerning forming a group against such things, in so far as RWB is concerned we have a charity liaison who is responsible for each year’s efforts. This year, she is focusing on organizations, which already serve the purpose you suggest. Concerning the terms “magick” and “will”, I do not always translate myself well into Thelema. I should probably use words more like “dharma” or “wyrd”. I do believe I understand the concept of the Thelemic use of the word “will”, but I find the Thelemic version of what I believe are similar concepts to be overly focused on self. “Every man and woman is a star”. Maybe it is just the way folk think of the teachings in the Western World, but most folk seem to take such to mean a unique point, set apart from other points. Invisible to the casual observer are the currents, which cause one star to be influenced by the multitude of others, thus it is ignored. I do not feign to know the totality of my will, dharma, or wyrd; but I do believe I am working within the scope of what I have gleamed.To be honest, I sometimes wonder if Aleister Crowley didn’t kind of rewrite the Bagadavita for the Western World. Well, rewrite and condense. Considering I have heard you call yourself a Thelemic Wiccan, I think you will get a kick out of my idea that Thelemic Krishna’s might be the next up and coming movement. I know it sounds a bit nuts, but if one discusses ideology with the Krishna folk who have been elevated to any degree (so to speak) it is amazing to see so many foundations for Western Occult philosophy.Concerning other observations in your post; I was working at a Ren. Festival during a downpour. The place was soaked and everyone was upset. Everyone except for the mud beggars who announced to the crowds over and over again that “All the world is a stage” as they made complete fools of themselves wallowing in mud puddles. Later, after showers, we had supper together and talked about the day’s bounty, our children, and our aspirations for a better tomorrow. During our conversation, they didn’t seem much like fools. I guess they were wrong, all the world is not a stage. Just most of it. The thing is, I don’t have something as obvious as the rain to tell me when I am on stage and when I am not.If you would be interested in further educating folk like me about the teachings of Thelema, I would be honored to have you speak at RWB. After all, you do have really good taste in not only reading material, but in lover’s names (hope you liked that one). Seriously, knowing that which has taken place on stage I think the audience would be moved by our teaming up on an issue we agree with. My email address is ajdrew at pagannation dot com.

  • A.J. Drew

    Lore – For rape, abuse, and incest we are promoting Rainn. Do you think the agency you mentioned is better suited for general promotion within the pagan community? I would also be interested to know what you think of http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org as a point of contact. PaganNation.com is currently running their banner for suicide intervention. We choose these two because although they are not strictly focused on young folk, they seem well equipped in that area and that seems to be the area where the most need is present in our community.

  • Anonymous

    AJ;>I do believe I understand the concept of the Thelemic use of the word “will”,I am not so sure if you understand the difference or not. I cannot put it more simply than I did in the post you are referring to. The “Will” of Thelema is one’s Sole Purpose for Being (AC called this one’s “True Will”) which is constant, as opposed to “will,” being intent, etc., which is subject to change.Don’t feel too badly though, lots of people, including many who call themselves Thelemites, do not seem to know the difference either. Crowley clearly explains the differences throughout his various works (after 1907).If you really need more elaboration, I would advise going to my site (please pardon the mess as it is being revamped) http://www.shadowmagick.com, on the menu at the left go to FAQ’s, then read “What is Magick / Magic ?” It discusses the difference between Magic and Magick, and Will vs. will, with a short comment on “Do What Thou Wilt.” I can’t add much more to what I have said there.>but I find the Thelemic version of what I believe are similar concepts to be overly focused on self.There is a reason for this … it IS about oneself; self liberation, self realization, finding one’s own True Will, following one’s own Path, etc.>“Every man and woman is a star”.I will say this; Each star has it’s own particular / correct orbit. If it strays from it’s natural path, disaster will follow (and yes, each star is unique unto itself).For a deeper understand of this, I can only recommend The Book of the Law and the various Comments made upon it by Aleister Crowley. >I do not feign to know the totality of my will, …”Most people don’t, so you’re in good company, but if you do THEN you will have discovered the Thelemic concept of True Will (“Will” as opposed to “will”). >If you would be interested in further educating folk like me about the teachings of Thelema, I would be honored to have you speak at RWB. Now I know you are desperate. I almost choked on my cigarette when I read this.>Seriously, knowing that which has taken place on stage I think the audience would be moved by our teaming up on an issue we agree with.While we do agree that child abuse is wrong, your Ball is NOT about that. You have made it about The Frost’s. I do not want to have any part of sacrificing anyone in effigy, except perhaps georgie w. bush. I am therefore disinclined to acquiesce to your offer.In an earlier post, in the comments section, you said something about people with guts like Martello and Slater. You weren’t around in those days but I was. While I did not live in New York City, and got the news of what was happening after the fact, it seemed to me to have resulted in Witch Wars, back-stabbing, and other stupid BS, more so than anything else. It may somehow all seem romantic or courageous but it wasn’t. Like I said in the ad for my 2nd (or was it my 3rd?) Witches Ball – “Real Witches Have Balls …” starting a war doesn’t take balls, it only takes foolishness. L.V.X.93/93Blessed BeShadow

  • K.Connor

    I must say I am very surprised at a number of things — the fact that some people don’t realize how early puberty starts these days for one thing — 10 is now the AVERAGE age, it often happens though as early as 8 years old. THe fact that the Frosts also INSIST on having sex with their “students” in order for initiation is just plain WRONG. I have thought these people gave pagansim a bad name for decades– I’m glad to see others who believe the same. People need to realize that when someone is raped and the rapist uses paganism as a defense — IT DOES US NO GOOD.

  • MoonMorgan

    I just wanted to say, regardless of the age of the child/person in question, what the book proposes is still wrong. A father should not be helping even an 18 year old girl to insert phallus’s. And the book does say child, NOT adolescent anyways.

  • Dawn

    Although I’m not a big fan of the publicity stunt, I do agree that the Pagan community at large should make very clear that what is written in The Good Witches Bible is NOT the norm of things and is certainly NOT acceptable in modern Paganism. That book has been used to condemn us and many newbies coming out of Christianity look to it as seriously as their former Bible. It is alarming and, while I certainly am not promoting censorship, a disclaimer might be in order- or at least some of our Pagan Elders could stop praising the Frosts so long and loud. In my own writings they are mentioned for their contributions- which are no small thing- but I also mention that their style is controversial and not at all representative of the values of your average American Pagan.Now I hear you all moaning (because I hear it so often from fellow Pagans) that nobody has a right to tell other people how to do things- and you are correct, inasmuch as those things do not involve illegal activity, especially child abuse! Once innocents are being harmed, or a situation is created in which innocents can be harmed, something needs to be done- even if that something is nothing greater than the rest of us saying- We don’t agree with that.

  • Anonymous

    >Now I hear you all moaning (because I hear it so often from fellow Pagans) that nobody has a right to tell other people how to do things-Greetings;You’re right. It takes a book, a movie, a stupid TV show, or a board game to do that!Fraternally,Shadow

  • Anonymous

    Lord Shadow:The Sacrifice to Caring is a one hour rite being written and led by victims of child molstation, rape, and abuse. The event itself is three days. Each year, there is a work in focus. The focus of this years work is the defence of children. Many organizations which protect children will be in attendanc, including Bikers Against Child Abuse (my favorite).Stating that the event is all about the Frosts is uninformed. Sure, I reply to blogs where people make false statements about the nature of my proposed sacrifice, however that is because those statements are addressing me personaly. The event is much larger than myself and involves much more than the matter of the Frosts.Like I said, one hour of a three day event. Saying RWB is all about the Frosts is like saying it is all about Voodoo possessions (that one has a two hour time slot).A.J. Drew

  • Anonymous

    Dear AJ;As I said, YOU have made it about the Frost’s. You have made the Frost’s a bigger deal than other other factor of your event; DeFrost, etc.I believe that you are now trying a bit of smoke and mirrors to redirect how your motives are viewed.How is the Frost thing being just one hour in a 3 day event any different from your rite just being one hour in a 3 day event? It is all tied together in one package isn’t it? Merry Christmas.L.V.X.93/93Blessed BeShadow

  • hp battery

    good post.

  • Dan

    It seems to me that there are a large number of books out there with questionable bits, even ones I’m currently using. I would be suprised if any one of us blindly follows everything written about any religous practice, pagan or otherwise.If I wrote a book that said -A wiccan must always do a crap before closing the circle, then take the crap and bury it, to represent the expulsion of negative energy – would any of you actually do it? I know I wouldn’t.I think that most pagans/wiccans are by nature the type that question what they see and read, otherwise wouldn’t we still be christians? (And no, I’m not slating christians)I do not defend either the Frost’s book or AJ’s actions and comments, and definately not the abuse of children, or the abuse of power the passage represents.Interestingly enough, not one person has stepped forward and said they have followed that practice, which hopefully proves the point: While a great many people will have read the book, the majority (and hopefully all) have the good sense not to follow blindly, the Frosts included, it would seem.I completely agree with a previous comment, surely our energy would be better directed in the setting up and/or supporting of an anti-child abuse group? Those that like their publicity can gain it in a positive way by saving children under threat.Just one child saved by a pagan/wiccan would give out better, more postive, publicity, as well as a heck of a lot of good karma.

  • Dan

    Just read through my post and spotted the spelling mistakes, please forgive the errors.Blessed be.

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